Forgotten Bunker 2 (Looking For Feedback Created 3 months ago2018-05-16 05:13:00 UTC by olograph olograph

Created 3 months ago2018-05-16 05:13:00 UTC by olograph olograph

Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 05:18:12 UTC Post #339594
Guys, do you remember the day I posted pictures of a map I intended to release without lighting? I turned into a punching bag ... which I deserved due to acute noobness.

Well guess what, today is the time to be your punching bag again. I just completed the very same map, Forgotten Bunker 2, with the help of Windawz. (To hear about it, look at the links below.)

A LOT of work have been put into it since I first presented it. It broke through the acceptable mark and ironically reached a point where we're confident it is truly outstanding.

Did you have a bad day? / feast on breaking people with magnified details? / simply are into gratuitous hatred?

Well this is your occasion to put our claims down, because I'm looking for feedback from the community.

Seriously, we tried to spice things up and we would like to see if you pee liquid flames out of your butt after this meal.

Please watch the YouTube trailer at: https://youtu.be/APp0RLRlk_k

read the description and if you dare, install the map and give it a go.

Find the map in TWHL beta vault: https://twhl-beta.info/vault/view/6251
or plain TWHL vault: http://twhl.info/vault.php?map=6270
or gamebanana: https://gamebanana.com/maps/200045

Thanks!
  • Olo
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 12:24:10 UTC Post #339596
I've played through the map a bit and honestly, whilst stuff like lighting has been improved, the map still has serious flaws.

First off, the whole thing feels like a Zombies map. Not in the sense that there should be zombies, but that there's an area that's filled with random and un-obvious easter eggs and quirks, things to do etc. It doesn't make sense or fit in with a deathmatch map, in which players will be actively trying to murder the shit out of each other rather than cooperate or let others try and activate these easter eggs. Tunnels through fridges that lead to other rooms, a washing machine you can climb in, a ridiculously long vent with codes in.. how is anyone meant to know this? how does it contribute? It doesn't feel like a deathmatch map at all, it doesn't feel like it should be a deathmatch map either.

On that note, gameplay. This seems like a good basis for a Sven Coop map, but the layout, general design, etc. just objectively does not work for deathmatch. The Engine room is absolutely horrendous from a gameplay perspective ( can't see half the bloody time, ridiculously low gravity in a fairly packed area, so much crap in the way it's nigh impossible to find another player unless they're trying to leave the room). I don't know what the craic with the failsafe tunnels by the conference room are, these just massively distract from gameplay and if any more than one player were in there, they'd just instantly kill the other.

I just get an overwhelming feeling that the team has just wanted to add or show features in a map without thinking whether it contributes to the overall play of the map, or whether it fits in. This sorta gets amplified with how much time and effort was put into the "trailer" - but not a single bit of the trailer had any multiplayer gameplay in it - just playing about with the doodads. Personally, I think these doodads do neither, and doesn't really add or improve much from the original forgotten bunker. I appreciate that people's ability to make interesting entity combinations or keypads is still a pretty cool thing to do in the engine, but putting it in places where it feels out of place or getting in the way - it just doesn't make it better.

Architecture doesn't seem to have been improved at all from initial comments about the map, and easily looks like something from 1999. Look at any of the tutorials on how to improve architecture on either here or gamebanana or the like. Lighting is exactly the same.

I think next steps from this would honestly be to downscale from all the entity stuff and just work on making really small maps that look pretty and have an obvious sense of gameplay around them.
Instant Mix Instant MixTitle commitment issues
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 14:48:50 UTC Post #339597
"This seems like a good basis for a Sven Coop map"
That's a good point actually. SC would allow for much higher limits and more stuff to be implemented.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 17:18:02 UTC Post #339598
Instant Mix,

it seems you have followed my advice on punching the hell out of our nuts. You pointed out so much things that were wrong however very little that was good. And I think it wasn't fair as you seem to have talked on top of a map makers' conviction that drifts from an ordinary player's perspective. By making map, we build convictions that can blur the primary interest... as we're pissed those convictions aren't followed.

The map is meant to be more of a gag map in the line of rats maps while still being playable as a deathmatch one. It's mostly meant to be cool. Not to satisfy map maker purism. People won't stick as much to all the technical details and focus on the cool and sophisticated part which is the point and excellent. Cool is the non-politically correct places, the toaster, scientist torturing booth. Cool concepts you seem to be totally cold about as you didn't even mention it.
it doesn't feel like it should be a deathmatch map either.
I don't see you play often and there aren't many servers out there. I remember at some point in a map there was a secret numpad (less sophisticated). People had played that map for hours, but at some point they decided to gang up and try to figure it out. It kills the boredom which has become a problem for player having played for years and years on end. There's a thirst of something new. People already know the drill, all the guns and main maps. They won't care being interrupted for hour number 776553 of gameplay.
these failsafe tunnels) just massively distract from gameplay
It's part of it! This is how you defuse the bomb. Have you watched the video fully?
the team has just wanted to add or show features in a map without thinking whether it contributes to the overall play of the map
It's actually a statement! In the sense of: "this is how it should be, it's tenfold more interesting that way". Thanks

I didn't want to make a Sven Coop map, because I don't want to start from an obscurely old game to a mod I feel is even more obscure. Whether it's true or not, I've always been a HLDM player at heart.

I just wanted to add a pinch of coop features (Xen Raid) and some more dynamic gameplay stakes. Like, you know, counter-strike does and team fortress does while still making it deathmatch/egoistic oriented, just like a fancier crossfire.

To be fairly honest, I haven't looked at your work and I'm pretty sure it's neat, but granted it's HLDM, if it's just like the other "elevator only as fanciest feature" map, I'll probably find it to be extremely banal and gray. The number of beautiful maps I played and didn't give a sh** about while everybody remember the rats map. ...tomorrow it's going to be... you know that map with the toaster? ... not you know that map with the beautiful structures and platforms.

I'm sure people do cool stuff in single player modes though, but even then, in term of complexity, what our map does with the event defusing and its other fancy features might beat a double dozen of them.
The Engine room is absolutely horrendous
This is true though. It's not its strong point. But again. It still look pretty cool with its gears and that kind of moving disk on the wall. You truly are heartless not mentioning it.
if any more than one player were in there, they'd just instantly kill the other.
You miss the entire point there and the fact that RPGs are placed there...as well as in other cramped up places such as the high-impact zone. It's meant to be a clusterf**k. Not everywhere. Just at some places, where you are in a rush.
This sorta gets amplified with how much time and effort was put into the "trailer" - but not a single bit of the trailer had any multiplayer gameplay in it - just playing about with the doodads.
First, thanks for giving us credits for making a nice trailer rather than using that fact to put ourselves down. I've tested this map with bots and a couple of friends a couple of times. My social life is blooming, but my game-related social life sucks and I'm proud of it and considering the few people still playing the game it was hard to find, let's say 10 people, to test with without spoiling who I wanted to impress. Life being what it is, I had to finish it in one go and couldn't afford to wait to sync for others agenda. Doesn't excuse it, but it explains.
Personally, I think these doodads do neither, and doesn't really add or improve much from the original forgotten bunker.
I couldn't agree less and what the h*** do you know about the original Forgotten Bunker? LOLL What are you talking about.
Architecture doesn't seem to have been improved at all from initial comments about the map
People here won't agree, but beside places like here: Nobody, I said nobody cares, but map makers. I know I'm not making friends and sorry to break that out to you, but my reputation as a map maker is just 1/100th of my social life.

Also, you don't instinctively forgive the map for its gameplay focus. You haven't pointed out that the architecture provides value. E.g.: Having an entrance provides somewhere to go to when there's a Water-flood. The shaft is the right size to throw grenades on the bottom floor. The map starts from very high up and goes very deep down. It's not the most beautiful, but it's well though.
Look at any of the tutorials on how to improve architecture on either here or gamebanana or the like.
This is probably my last map (contain your sorrow). I just wanted to realize my childhood dream, but Jesus, redefine you sense of what's cool or not, because the elements we put in the map are just so funny and I never saw you react to it.

I don't like your attitude (mostly negative) while I asked to be destroyed. Fair enough, but still man you wouldn't see a perl if it was in front of you.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 18:25:44 UTC Post #339601
Ok, whilst I completely and utterly disagree with your final statement (you wouldn't see a pearl* if it was in front you), I still completely hold my viewpoint. Your arguments do not invalidate or counter my own, you are merely saying "but yeah it's something different so it's fine!". What you have produced is what you've produced and whether it is or is not your dream is irrelevant, it should stand on its own two feet with no emotional support. I saw the original forgotten bunker map with its lack of lighting in its original threads. My viewpoints are my own and have got to that way from noticing and understanding gameplay and game design. My playtime in HLDM is irrelevant.

Please take criticism where it is due. I also can't really fathom half of your response, what are you talking about percentages of social lives? What on earth has social life got to do with it? I'm putting my two cents forward on a map that someone has tried to claim is "pushing the goldsrc engine to its limits"..
Instant Mix Instant MixTitle commitment issues
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 21:11:29 UTC Post #339602
"but yeah it's something different so it's fine!"
Your review (deliberately) turns a blind eye on the most obvious interest of the map and is formulated in a way that doesn't even try to give credits for the good shots as consolation price. It's rude and sounds like you're only trying to pull it down while being very little technically and morally constructive.

Stop attributing my counter critic to the fact that I'm defending something of my own.
I saw the original forgotten bunker map with its lack of lighting in its original threads.
Forgotten Bunker 1 was made back in 2003. The version you are referring to is simply a beta of Forgotten Bunker 2 (as also explained in my journal).
My playtime in HLDM is irrelevant.
LOLL. Sorry, but if you don't play, let's say, Counter-Strike, the value of your judgment towards it can't be else than very poor.
what are you talking about percentages of social lives
I'm just saying, I don't care voicing my opinion here even though it's not popular. Having a virtual social life, especially in the map making scene is not my primary goal in life. My real social life is what matters to me and I think it's generally seen as more sane.
pushing the goldsrc engine to its limits
I truly think we reached some heights in how complex of a way one can program entities and by having that many working interactive things at once without breaking the entities limit.

Prove me wrong with map examples. Single maps, not a set, as single player implementations "cheat" by switching from levels to levels.
someone has tried to claim
Clearly you didn't understood the irony under that claim which goes along with the:
Did you have a bad day? / feast on breaking people with magnified details? / simply are into gratuitous hatred?
which clearly expresses the feeling I developed with the taste I had from the community of that site so far.

Good people IRL, I'm sure, but I often felt rudely judged based on technical convictions.

In the meantime:
User posted image
I'm going to share you a story.

I'm a computer programmer. At 19, I developed a performance solution for my company's software which saved a multi-million dollar project which made me the first in my office to ever escalate to the R&D department(true story). The solution was hyper complex and even the technical lead had a hard time to follow (hack in the .NET framework, fancy lazy loading techniques). However, the other R&D folks (which ressemble you a lot in your way of thinking) never paid attention to the performance solution I created. They never allotted me time to work on it. While everyone were receiving warm emails about how it was awesome and crucial from both clients and developers around the other offices across the ocean.
The rest of the story doesn't matter...(I finally put some personal time, finished it and it went live for a couple of projects.)

So yeah, I hate my R&D colleagues and they can't see something's great even if they have their nose into it.

They demolish my day to day joy and interest towards making something great, contrarily to the colleagues from my past office which live under another work culture. One I respect more.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 21:31:42 UTC Post #339603
I think you guys should stop arguing on this topic. Nothing good is going to come out of this pointless fight.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 21:42:11 UTC Post #339604
I have no ambitions of continuing, but I couldn't be subject to the rude purist and perhaps even jalous attitude I sense in the forum without retorting.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 21:49:13 UTC Post #339605
If you don't like hearing criticism please don't specifically ask for it and then argue that it's incorrect. Anybody else who was thinking about commenting on your map might be reconsidering now because it seems you're not interested in feedback that's not positive. Even though you requested negative feedback.
Penguinboy PenguinboyHaha, I died again!
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 22:22:21 UTC Post #339606
Penguinboy, there are ways of criticizing and we should be aware of that especially as we're a small community.

I couldn't be as rude as InstantMix even if I tried. Knowing myself, I would've tried to give you maximum credit for what you did right if I would've been hard in the idea of not annihilating your morale.

This guy doesn't give a s***. He basically just said only what he didn't like by not mentioning what's obviously out of the ordinary for a map of that genre. More than that, not paying attention to it IMO was a demeaning conscious choice.

So he's either mean or lacking social skills, but he's most definitely lacking taste, but that's my opinion.

It's not that I have problem with criticism, but guys c'mon, people here have been hard AF since the beginning without caring one second about the taste they leave behind. You can't just blast another people's work without giving it the credit it deserves. You can be a a-hole on the web, but if it's custom here, I find that we have very shitty values.

There's also the fact that people here won't even try to find value in one's work if it's not 100% by the map maker's book. Which makes sense as the only people left are hardcore conservative map makers, but c'mon guys.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 22:25:46 UTC Post #339607
Well, I can't see him being rude in his initial post. He just pointed out the flaws that should be considered so you can avoid having them in your future projects. Basically he tried to help.

Just relax and try to read through that post again, but this time instead of fighting with him try to use the information he provided. We all are friends and no one is being rude here.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 22:55:49 UTC Post #339608
Perhaps he didn't understand the humor, but as he says he's negatively been inspired by the claims we made.

It just put people in some kind of miserable mode learned collectively from childhood where they crush and find defect in anything that show self-confidence without ever trying to find out if it's backed up or not.

I find his review to be unrewarding and castrating from the get go, mostly as he unilaterally disdained all the cool gizmos... which translate pretty much into what is the point of the actual map.

I doubt he couldn't figure out this was the actual map value and that this is where we deserved credit so he's not my friend anymore. He just didn't care about mentionning what was good.

It's like judging the overall qualities of Arnold Schwarzenegger based on his accent. It's cheap shot.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 23:10:00 UTC Post #339609
"I find his review to be unrewarding and castrating from the get go, mostly as he unilaterally disdained all the cool gizmos"
It's not supposed to be rewarding. The purpose of his feedback was to point out the flaws, not praise the features the map has. And if you think about it, if he was blindly praising the map for all the cool stuff, which is much easier than digging out the flaws, then such feedback would bring no use to you and would just satisfy your self-esteem (Cat's comment on GB is a nice example).

What Instant Mix did is listed the major flaws of the map, which basically means that he hinted you how you can improve it, or how you can avoid doing the same mistakes in your future maps. The thing is, anyone can point the good sides out, it doesn't take too much effort, but only a few can tell you what's wrong with your map and how you can improve it, and that is why this kind of feedback is so valuable.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 23:24:39 UTC Post #339610
You're clearly not looking for feedback, you're looking for praise. Everything you've said in this thread strikes me as someone completely up themselves who cannot handle criticism, which is a very negative position to take. Learning how to accept constructive criticism is a super important facet of being an artist (which, unfortunately, isn't nearly emphasized enough). No-one makes a masterpiece on their first attempts, and you won't get better if you don't accept external views. I would suggest taking a deep breath, calming yourself, and instead of looking at honest reviews as a slight, look at them to learn how you can improve what you have.

Anyway, I was going to take a look at this map, but the download wasn't working for me. I'm going to take a look at this map and give you constructive criticism, and praise only if I feel it is deserved. You should learn to accept that.
Jessie JessieLadytype
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-16 23:30:06 UTC Post #339611
^^ Pretty much what Jessie said.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 02:06:58 UTC Post #339612
You're clearly not looking for feedback, you're looking for praise.
Nope, nope.

Guys. If I understand correctly. If your 4 years old girl brings a drawing to you, you're gonna InstantMix AKA destroy the hell out of her?

C'mon. At which point of expressing our opinion is it stated that we shouldn't care about being fair and how the other person feel and receives it?

If your drawing is of a beautiful blue, but I like red, I'll still give it that it's a beautiful blue.

So basically, what I'm saying is that InstantMix, while providing his valuable opinion, disregarded some awesome sh**, cause HE didn't cared about it. And he didn't care giving to it the credit it deserves.

In the same idea that I told we are a small community, why are we forced to being a-holes to each other in our criticism? I won't go out and tell only negative points (WTF is that???) and would always mention something I don't like that I know is still remarkable.

You know, the case of Dr. Jekels and Mr. Hide on NES looks good. At least give it that if you're going to blast how the game is aweful(, but I don't think our map is that bad).

Now stop talking to me like I'm a child that can't hear critic. There's a way to criticize. Especially within family-size groups.

I wouldn't say InstantMix's work is sh**, cause it's absolutely static besides being beautiful like no one cares. (Except for now, but it's an example anyways). You know, even if that's my deepest thought. I'd voice what I like in what he did best and not just only bash him.

You don't think we did something special with the 4 way numpad-cancellable event system and all the other fancy stuff I won't even mention? Get out of here. I must've played 1500 maps until now and I've never seen anything close so I'm not even ashamed of mentioning it and I won't respect criticism that won't even consider it. It's about respecting one's inteligence before one's ego. If I would've grabbed my ass and complied to do something that's perfectly ordinary I would submit to receiving InstantMix quality of criticism.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 03:57:50 UTC Post #339613
The problem I see, at least going over yours and Instant Mix's comments, is that you seem to be propping this map up on it's trivial details. They may be well done, and you may be proud of them, but without having played the map and offering no criticism of my own, IM's complaints sound fair. If an apple's core is rotten, it doesn't matter how juicy it is on the outside.
Strider StriderTuned to a dead channel.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 04:45:15 UTC Post #339614
On it's trivial details
Trivial? ... Seriously? Don't make me laugh. Start by showing me an HLDM map with more complex and interesting implementations before I can assign you any kind of credibility.

My map clearly achieves technical feasts in its genre besides the wide variety of its gameplay features.

Are you kidding? Just numpads are something I see people have failed implementing correctly in their map.

I'm officially defying you. Waiting for your oh so sophisticated HLDM map examples big boy.

You know what's trivial and a wormhole of interest and importance in life? Static HLDM maps.
If an apple's core is rotten, it doesn't matter how juicy it is on the outside.
You guys seems to just care about the look in a lazy-arrogant manner that makes you disregard anything beside it.

Do you even play HLDM? That's what I thought.
Have you looked at the most currently played maps?
Do you know the extent of the average number of offered features?
Do you know they look like s***, like way worst than mine sometimes?

My map is far from ugly compared to a lot of the ones I've recently played in which are pretty 1999 square shaped.

Anyways, I won't back off. Even if the whole community is against me, I'll stand my ground. This is my artistic opinion directly against yours and I'll die before I agree that people like Instant Mix know what cool means.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 04:55:51 UTC Post #339615
Well, I've played it. Might as well step through some of the broader thoughts.

For how much you once whined about not wanting to do lighting (and how much you still seem to be acting like you're bitter that you needed to), I'd say the lighting is one of the stronger suits of this map. While it doesn't really go beyond functional, there are some areas of the map where I quite like the look the lighting provides. The conveyor corridor's glow is quite nice, and one or two areas use a nice trim backlighting that I'm prone to. Did not notice any particularly badly lit areas, though the engine room's pulsing red light is painful to look at for too long.

Apart from the odd spark, ambient sound seems to be nigh non-existant, making the map feel somewhat lifeless.

Architecture is functional for the most part, tending toward basic. Most areas have rather nice details within, but seem to be at the cost of interesting room structure. This could be helped by making the rooms less boxy, and detailing the wall brushes to match textures. For example, the outer walls of the presidential suite are downright dull, and slapping a flag on them does little to help.
My main beef with the architecture is the central hub room. For a room that is implied to be the main part of the map (which brings its own problems that I'll get to later), it's not pleasant to look at.

Now, gameplay... well. I think Instant Mix is right on the money about this not making a great HLDM map. Thematically, it feels very much like a pot luck map, with every area feeling thematically distinct from each other, and gadgets thrown in with little regard to how well they fit in a HLDM setting. The central room practically screams "hey, we need to connect all this stuff somehow". As far as the gadgets themselves go (and in that I am including your more touted examples, like your "events"), each one is at best mildly interesting. The "death path hazards" is just a have-enough-health crawlspace with a very meager reward that will get touched at most once in a HLDM game. The toaster, the rotating floor, the explosions... all funny maybe once (with the rotating floor outstaying its welcome almost instantly). The scientist murder machine is a concept that was pretty lame even when people were making them on the regular about 15 years ago (which my stream has had a handful of recently). The record player isn't new, but it's been done decently here. Also, you highlight the fact that grenades can be tossed down the ladder, I can assure you with some certainty that this will never be relevant in a HLDM match.
As for the events, I had to view your "trailer" just to figure out what was going on since I pressed the button three times and got the same event every time. Same with the function of the failsafe. (Incidentally, you used a trollface image in the year of our lord 2018, which also wasn't funny when it was relevant.) Since the nuclear strike was the only event I witnessed, I can attest that the windup is far too long, and the effects are both too long and underwhelming. I was stuck in the central area and was easily outhealing its damage. I can only assume similar criticism can be made of the other events. I will admit that the entity setup you must have used to achieve the multiple events and their cancellation is quite impressive, but its execution and its place in a HLDM map are questionable.

All-in-all, Instant Mix is probably right in that this map might be better suited to Sven-Coop. SC has some surprisingly fun stuff-around maps (that I'd suggest the names of if I could remember them), and what you seem to be striving for with this map seems to fit that bill better than HLDM. With what's here, you have a number of interesting concepts, but the medium you have chosen for them does them a disservice.

-

Now that all's said and done, I'd say the biggest gap from people enjoying this map, quality aside, is you. Your ego is plastered all over this map is all its unappealing glory. "We have pushed the goldsrc engine to the limits". "This must be the most feature-rich deathmatch map created for Half-Life". "This work is worth a thousand words". I have no doubt this kind of language alone puts people off of your work. Combined with your petulant, egotistic responses to fair criticism, I doubt anyone is going to take this map particularly seriously. Your map is not especially ground-breaking, entertaining, funny or special. Your map is fine. You can either accept that and listen to people to improve, or you can keep bitching and ensure that not a soul ever takes this as seriously as you want them to.
Jessie JessieLadytype
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 05:52:33 UTC Post #339616
I'm sorry we disagree people. It seems we just don't have the same definition of what's interesting and appropriate or not and let's leave it at that...

I would give you the inverse critic anytime as I'm sure your work soaks from the same (personaly deemed) uncool conception of what's cool ... just as other of your tastes (if you would share them) would confirm. One can just stay convinced that the same bread he eats everyday is the best I guess. Some aren't made to change the world.

Since day one I'm distressed as I feel that roams some kind of purisms over this community which somehow seem to allow people to destroy anyone's attempt at being original. People seem so much devoted to technical materba*** that they forget what's awesome: STUFF AKA explosions, mechanisms, secrets, puzzles, gratuitous violence, exercise balls that fucking explode and generous combos of what preceeds.

Don't beat yourself up, I have a looong history of not agreeing to what's good. Not just in video game. That's my life.

This place is dying. Newbies come here with fire in their eyes and you just bash them with your architectural notions that all players of that mod won't ever care and remember about.

While some have reviewing talents. I find they're good at downgrading variety to their unimaginative wormhole by disecting everypart of it like the most boring biology teacher that never had any kind of pleasure in life. You just don't get the jokes, read through irony, understand my cynic humor, find not politicaly references tasty or comprehend that the simplicity of the apparatus in my map make them so bad that they're good. It's sad.

People probably don't play HLDM anyways and can't understand the demand/interest of these features in question and their rarity.

...I was supposed to leave it at that. Oh well.

Anyways, I don't need further contribution from the community as I am self-confident enough about what I did to make an artistic statement. Is it an ego vice? I'm just affirming myself and that's what art is about: I think my shit rocks and I think you don't know what does. PERIOD

Any arguing beyond that point is of the realm of pure subjectivity. I've seen enough stuff in my life to deem what's cool or not. It's not taught in Valve Editor.

Hate me for it, fine. I don't intend of pursuing this thread and I invite people not to, even if it's to convince me that I'm an a-hole or some kind. Just let it sink.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 06:08:59 UTC Post #339618
^^ What Jessie said.

If you intend to ask for criticism then you should be prepared to get hit hard.

You made complex entity work - great, but I fear you missed the point that HLDM quite old at this point and people are not generally looking for this kind of gameplay/style in a level.
rufee rufeeSledge fanboy
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 06:20:48 UTC Post #339619
Crossfire, the most played map of the game, if everyone remembers, is about an event raised at the push of a button. Don't tell me I denature the game by blooming the concept. The second most famous map is rats which is a gag map.
That's why I will stop listening to any of you. You don't know HLDM, its history or it's culture: don't talk about it.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 06:21:00 UTC Post #339620
This forum is not an echo chamber, which is what you're looking for.

If you can't take criticism then you'll be very frustrated at how people respond to your work. You could work hard on something for months and have it be dismissed out of hand, that's just how this goes.

You made a map, you learned stuff, people played it. Just because they didn't praise it to the heavens doesn't mean it isn't good, but there's always, always room for improvement, no matter how good it is.

Even the best level designers in the entire community still learn new things and improve after nearly 2 decades of mapping.
To think that you know things better than them after a few months of working with this game is incredibly arrogant, and if i were you i'd focus on dealing with that attitude instead of arguing with people about the quality of a map.
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 06:40:55 UTC Post #339621
You can sink me to the ground for the architecture and other stuff fine. I am not perfect, I have A LOT of room for improvement. Agreeing at 100%

Not recognizing the originality, but most importantly my technical feat is another story as yes I think I surpassed other mappers that worked at that level all their lives: ONE SHOT.

I'm a skilled sr. computer programmer, there's no shame about it.

If you don't, at least PLEASE show me a (HLDM, or even not) map that competes in my strong points. Fight me, fight me (figuratively)

I bet you can't. I did some virtuous entities wiring (it's like evolution, it's a fact) and, as I see it, you might be too proud to admit it because you've worked with the thing for so long.

Edit: It can't be the rats map, those rock. Or any sets of maps. However, I'm very sincere about shutting the h*** up if you can blow my mind.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 3 months ago2018-05-17 06:49:02 UTC Post #339622
I'm not really sure why you're expecting anyone to give you the time of day by this point. Especially since you're leaving and all.
Jessie JessieLadytype
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 08:27:37 UTC Post #339623
Bro the only standard you should be worrying about is the standard you set for yourself.

In the end It doesn't matter what Jessie or Instant Mix or me or anyone on here thinks of your map, what matters most is if you are happy with it. You shouldn't make a map only for the praise others.

I havn't played your map so I can't judge it. But what I'm trying to say is that you have to play to your strengths. I've been making HL maps for over 10 years on and off and I've never been able to make decent architecture. Check out any of my maps. But I think up some fun ideas and try to be original.

That 'Status Reporting' level I did in the TWHL Tower a couple years back was probably the worst looking map of the mod. It was blocky and lacked details. But people remembered it because I built it around my strengths and not my weekness - I cant make a visually good map but I can make a funny map.

Or then again there was my entry into the latest competition which, as far as I'm aware, was 1 of two single player map entries, (all the rest being multiplayer.)
I combined Opposing Force and Blue Shift which was a unique idea I thought and the map didn't have good architecture. Part of the feedback I got was "z-fighting brushes sliding through walls" and heck man, I didn't even know what that meant! But I made something I was happy with and something that was original and 'me'

One of the highlights of your map is the entity work and little gizmos. Thats awesome, not every designer can do that stuff well (incl. me) I think that stuff works really well in SP maps and can be a lot of fun.

But in the end, you have to find out what your strengths are and make stuff that, ultimately, you alone are happy with.
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 10:57:04 UTC Post #339628
Yeah man I've got to completely agree with what's been said in the rest of the thread here.
I don't understand why you're trying to attack my character and somehow using my name as insult because I apparently have a bad social life because I gave someone - who asked for feedback - my opinion.

What you completely failed to see but Jessie picked up on was that I was obviously aware and impressed by the entity work. My entire criticism was the lack of awareness of what makes a good "death match" level. All you've done is acted like a child and thrown a tantrum at myself and other members here simply because we didn't give this our utmost praise.

I don't care about the map anymore. You've got a genuine attitude problem and your content will not improve until you allow yourself to realise that your work is not perfect. You can't fix what you don't think is broken.

No, I don't think exploding balls are cool. No, I don't think the trollface is cool. Objectively. You may think they are and that's totally fine, but if you are bringing your content to the masses and wanting feedback, you should be expecting to hear that.

I make plenty of music but I rarely upload it because I make it purely in the knowledge that I like it and that's all that matters and that's ok. It's music for me and nobody else, so why would I put it online for others to say it's not what they like, and then get angry at them for it?

If you enjoy the map, that's fine, but don't get angry at us because we don't share or view it in the same light that you do.
Instant Mix Instant MixTitle commitment issues
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 15:35:01 UTC Post #339632
Man, people won't try anything new and complain that things that go beyond the ordinary aren't like they are used to without actually weighting the value of the bold move.

You see people replicating the same music, the same video games, over and over and the sadest thing of all is that they see absolutely no value in originality.

They can't understand your art so they'll bash the hell out of insignificant details.

I'm sadly used to people not getting why things I do demarcate. People who often indulge into the same reheated gray shit.

Songs always talk about love and say "yeah, yeah, yeah". There's no efforts. If they do rock, they'll imitate their favorite band and practice on covers. Put them in front of a blank page and they can't deviate from the already borrowed path. It's of a pathetism!

I do believe in such thing as owning so abundantly in one aspect that it throws yourself on top of other conservative realizations. Cause what you did is so precious. Like if you compose the most wildly original guitar riffs, people should shut the hell up that the guitarist is not the best and that the time signature is not orthodox.

You can be the best hockey player with a broken hockey stick or be the best overall sex partner while having a small penis.

The map I made just scores more on relevant levels. It has the most bang for one's buck. It is the most stimulating. It's not perfect, but overall it's like babe ruth, it's fat, ugly and slow, but it's the best goddamn baseball player of all time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it you people.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 15:53:27 UTC Post #339633
I suggest you stop posting for a while and learn to deal with criticism. You're just embarrassing yourself.
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 17:04:43 UTC Post #339635
You've done nothing throughout this thread but make it clear that you have an over inflated sense of self worth. You nor this map are god's gift to this planet. You're welcome back when you've calmed down and got your ego back in order.
Instant Mix Instant MixTitle commitment issues
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 18:15:12 UTC Post #339636
I love originality, but it doesnt always equal good. The biggest problem is that your map appears to be a 'mess around' type of map, which usually nobody does in HLDM. Maybe your map would be better in sven coop or gmod.
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 18:35:28 UTC Post #339639
I've reached a point where I need to unilateraly say f*** to the critics. It's a matter of people's taste against mine.
I allow myself to under-value their opinions as they haven't made the same commitment towards standing out of the mainstream than I did. They are judging me upon a culture where originality is defined as replicating other people's work in very mild alternate ways. They don't share the same values than I have which prioritize credits to getting outside one's comfort zone and stressing demarcation, nor share the same greed towards novelty. They are anti-megalomaniacs that underestimate wonderfully powerful and inpiring drives such as the twirling pull and push of arrogant ambitions and the hypnotic delight of ever-discovering something new. They are judging by standards that I most often violate consciously and they oppose to it unable to understand the excellence behind the "why". They think at first degree while I burn at 400oF. They don't even understand sarcasm, even less irony especially when tinted with dark humor and cynicism. They don't understand the good taste of "it's soo bad, it's good". They aren't meant to define what's awesome. It's the true artist's work. They see novelty as dull as I see them as they never cared about things being different. It's also not special to them as they aren't equipped with the latest module to appreciate fresh genius. Their best move is to revere those devoted to pioneering by admitting easily and promptly that they aren't part of that much of an important enterprise. Their mouth speak pre-build sentences they heard from other people that they wave as if they had a copyright on that wisdom. They build their opinions build on a passive, unimaginative eyes. They don't have good measure of what's awesome as they lack style and personality. They'd shit on a Picaso. They are coward immitators and they are so used of eating the same uncool shit that it's the only thing that they like.
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 20:39:45 UTC Post #339643
You wanted honest feedback, people gave you honest feedbag. You didn't like what they thought of your map and you turned all ragefest on them. Whatever they say, you just don't want any negativity being said about it, which is kinda what you have to deal with as a beginning mapper on a mapping site. And you know what, it isn't negativity, it's constructive criticism, I repeat: constructive criticism. No one want to be rude, man, you are rude to them because you didn't like what they say about your map.

Just accept what people think of your map and improve, become a better mapper. Personally, I think your map isn't the worst I've seen (remember psilous, anyone?), far from it, but it's definitely not the best map I've seen either. Now are you going to get all rage on me for saying that?
The Mad Carrot The Mad CarrotMad Carrot
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-17 20:51:05 UTC Post #339644
^^ What Jessie everybody except you said.

You just leave too many hints that show that this post is about you and not your map. You want praise. People have been giving you feedback about your map, you've replied with personal attacks, told us about your life, and comparisons involving penises and Schwarzenegger.
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-18 01:53:35 UTC Post #339648
That's just to tell you that I didn't read your like 5 past comments, that I stand my ground with the fact that IMO my map scores the highest note ever to have been attributed in term of richness of gameplay, abundance of features and in term of difficulty of entities wiring for the HLDM category ... beside being fucking hillarious. You don't even play HLDM, know the kind of common maps and interests people that play it have and you stick to erroneous conservative convictions that it shouldn't have that many features while forgetting about crossfire events and rats gizmos, that are top 10 played maps. This annihilates any form of credibility that you could have. The Sven Co-op mod, motivates you of degrading any of my efforts on HLDM by lazily neutralizing any positive points my map can have, being gameplay oriented. You are obcessed with architecture and showing off your technical knowledge to an extent where you're too jalous to admit I fucking rocked the thing. It's understandable that you are pissed at I did it on my first map with determination and focus on doing what I know is, by founded experience, in demand and has never been done before. Thing you clearly don't attempt or give credit to do out of your jalous feeling from being rightfully, but oh so painfully pushed. You are so miserably trying to attack me on the ego side as you are consciously neglecting the value of what I'm bringing to you and actively being harsh because of your disposition against my socky enthusiasm. Your reviews suck. You're not even trying to find what's nice, because you are obcessed by my attitude. Furthermore, you don't get the references, get the humor which often is through things being very basic, self-deprecated or down-right immature, like one likes public radio and distaste underground music. It's heavy. You talk about maps without taking into account the quality of the ones currently played in HLDM, mostly on the last remaining truly active server: hootersgaming (which you probably don't know about) which sometime rock, but are of a very basic nature and lynch my map over it's 1999 look while I've done in 3 days what would take you months to half-ass. You have forgotten what HL is all about: STUFF AKA aliens, explosions, gratuitous violence, alarms, turrets, action and not designs people most of time profoundly have in their a**. You are the distillate of the map making community and I don't see you as any kind of authority having played this game for so many years, hosting my server, back in the days and having been a clan leader. Who are you guys to teach me what's cool or not? Your persisted interest towards the making of that game, unlike my very temporary one, might actually be worrying. Talk about conservative people that can't progress. For me, you are all a bunch of uncool nerds (that don't have style IRL and probably don't have a social life), except that guys that ports half-life to C#, that's cool as shit... so why should I fucking care about not hurting your feelings? My map being in the vault? There's always going to be gamebanana. I don't give a shit, you guys are a disgrace for what's awesome -> ban the hell out of me. I've accomplished my childhood dream now and my work for half-life is over. I brought you light and you walked over it like fucking blind people. Screw you hard nerds!
olograph olographTWHL's Personal Donald Trump
Posted 2 months ago2018-05-18 02:04:17 UTC Post #339649
This is going nowhere. Please be considerate on TWHL or relocate to some other community instead. Nothing has been said by any member to justify your nonsensical insults on specific people or the general community. If you are displeased with the discussion here and you are unable to adapt then I suggest that you leave like you said you were going to.
Penguinboy PenguinboyHaha, I died again!
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