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Sorry The Hunter, I was almost finished with this when you posted

Dm_particle, to keep things a bit fairer. I can't play HL2 maps anyway

Could be considered an anti-vote.

i vote dm_particle also.
me=sourcefree.

Logical.

i vote for whatever someone else votes that isn't the citizen-i vote for dm_particle because i've actually played it. it is very dark tho.

anti-vote

I vote for dm_particle because I don't want The Citizen to win

anti-vote

Sorry to feed the fire, but my vote is dm_particle.

not sure

I vote for dm_particle.

It's mega awesome... and for the lulz.

anti-vote

If MotM works with (as you mentioned) "voting against", then count me out of any future reviews or anything to do with it. I'm all for congratulating mappers for the good job, but childish attitudes don't appeal to me.

Srry, I think it you squeezed a little bit out of each of the 16 maps, you'd end up with enough content to make a good one. I've made a few good DM maps in the past, and I would objectively choose "The Citizen" over any of them every single time, even with the bugs the first version has. But again that's just my opinion.

...after hearing you gloat about how incredible you think your own mod is though

He hasn't said "incredible" anywhere. He was probably thinking of objective things such as amount of content, architecture, lighting, layouts, scripting, humour, originality, replay value etc.

Hell, I don't even think you deserve to win after getting so bent out of shape over your mod not getting a unanimously positive response

That's part of what I was talking about in my earlier post. Some of the decisions are not based on the quality of the maps and their content or even the enjoyment gotten out of them, it's based on personnal issues regarding the author/s, thinking more of "punishing" someone's map instead of congratulating the author of another map. Would the voting be the same if the exact same copy of "The Citizen" was made by any two other users? I have a feeling it wouldn't.

I was joking, you don't have to count our votes.
But yes, it does say a lot about some people if they are voting not because they like map A (some users have already specified they don't have HL2), but because they specifically don't want map B to win. Meaning that if it wasn't dm_particle in this case, they'd vote whatever else was in its place. Says a lot about maturity or rather lack of

I vote for Playbus's maps in The Citizen. lulz

Is that a "companion sphere" with a heart in one of the sketches?

No, I liked it.
But it seems to be less popular than my "boring as shit" mod. We know at least some people enjoyed it, which was our objective.

Detail works in different scales, and that's probably the most important thing about mapping, which can make a map fail even if it's apparently well crafted.
Detail doesn't mean every window in a building has to be carved in a bit to look three-dimensional, or that every spotlight needs 3 cables going to it. The setup and positions of things, as well as how they're lit, is much more important than how many things are actually there. And that also helps performance! It's not a question of how many brushes make up your pillars, it's about what exists between them once everything is compiled.

Not as boring as shit as people seem to feel about dm_vapour (let's all be childish yay!)

It's been fixed already. The sniper won't be as accurate, and I added more items and shortcuts around. I'm considering adding some rebel soldiers to appear when the Combine troops show up. But honestly, it's very easy to take them out if you still have the RPG.
The ending is what you'd expect after only the first two chapters, "the citizen" and "the soldier". It's not a closed story by any means, and as such doesn't need an obvious conclusion or a song about a cake. It's all about the journey.

This is the kind of thing you don't really show people...
The way I see it, a mapper shares his/her maps for two possible reasons.
1)A mapper knows his work can be improved and seeks the help of others to point out those things that might have been overlooked.
2)A mapper is satisfied with his work and wants the rest of the community to enjoy what he has worked on for free, be it singleplayer, deathmatch etc.

In this case, 1)there's no room for improvement because it'd mean changing even the most basic premise of the enviroment. 2)I'm not sure there are many people in this site who will be able to really enjoy it.
The only thing I could say is, if you use the Fit texture tool, make sure the X and Y scale stays the same.

just start with a box and then add more and more things

It's already been a while since I decided to drop the style of mapping of joining boxes together with hallways. It's what the engine really asks us for, but everyone knows it's not that interesting and hardly realistic. I'm going with a procedure of layers in my latest WIP, meaning a series of different elements (a mesh of pillars, a series of platforms, some big sets of stairs etc) overlap each other and create interesting spatial relationships between them as well as creating a nice game of shadows and light.
If an area is perfectly understandable once you're in it (for example: now I'm in a rectangular and evenly lit hangar room) and doesn't offer enough variation inside its own elements, it becomes uninteresting to look at it, let alone to play in it. Valve solves this problem partially by giving the whole HL2 world a theme of destruction and makeshift construction. The objective is always the same. Keep the player's eyes busy.

More than a mapping tip, this would be a tip for modders:
When thinking of a story for a mod, consider the resources you have (original game content) and try to make your story be possible to tell with just that. From that moment, you can start adding your custom materials, voice acting, and if you have the right people, new models. I think people tend to do the contrary>> Thinking of a story about something very different to the HL universe and then facing the fact that they're incapable of creating even 20% of the custom content required.
Base your work on your own skills and readily available resources, and it'll be easier to add from there. Don't make the core of your idea be born in something you're not even sure is possible to do.
I guess that would apply to maps sometimes.
Edit: What I really mean is that very few people could take the hard route and succeed (I hope Rimrook does). Minerva for example is based on default content, which is sometimes combined (pun intented) in new ways to make the best of it.

Make the water actually look like water you'd find in a cave, add more rocks in the water even if players can't reach them, and rock formations that go from the floor up to the ceilings.

Cstrike is the most played game

Which unfortunately it makes our maps be much less likely to be played as other players have quite a few maps to choose from instead of ours.

www.6Dmod.com ?
www.hl1-6D.com?

It had a very rudimentary lighting preview system 6 years ago when I gave it a try. But for HL1, why not just compile and look for yourself? It has to be a very badly designed area if you can't compile with cordon bounds and look at it in a minute.

Ok, I didn't know.

I see you're using the militia bunk models. You can't release any CS:S models with HL2 maps unless the player has the gcf file. We had to make that particular model out of brushes for "The Citizen".

From those screenshots it looks like most of the map is contained in a single a room, which is not ideal for the HL engine.
At this point, the only thing that I could recommend is making smaller versions of the textures and giving them bigger scale values. For example, if you have a wall texture that is 256x256 @ scale X=1.00 and Y=1.00, resize the texture to 128x128 and use a scale of X=2.00 and Y=2.00.
That should save you quite a few polygons.

I know...
I can make a file that will work for people with that problem, but I'd prefer if I could make the same material work for everyone.

@HLmapper or anyone with that same problem: Could you do me a favour? Can you add the two files in this zip file to your The Citizen/materials/citizen folder?
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mb2twa
You'll be asked to overwrite one of the files. In theory, this should get the elite mask working. I'll include it in the update if it works.

I want to be sure, so my question is: do refractive materials work with your 3D card? Are you running DirectX 7? It'll only take me a couple of lines to fix the elite mask for old gfx cards, but I need to know if that's the only problem with it.
I'll also clip that room you found (I thought I had done so too).
We will be more proud when we release an updated version (a patch wouldn't work as we need to change little things in almost every map).
It's only a suggestion, but some of you might want to wait for version 1.1 to complete it with every easter egg.

I swear I had done that, thinking exactly of that situation. I'll clip it... or something like that...

Yes, we've been getting reports on that bug quite often. I've come to the conclusion that there's a flaw within HL2 itself and the Save Game system. Some entity parameters are not recorded into the file, which means some flaws will occur if you load the game. Were you hearing the breathing sound at that point? Did the problem occur when you first played or did it happen after loading a saved game? I never had any problems at all in that area until I decided to quick load. HL2 forgot I had gotten rid of the disguise.
We'll fix it for version 1.1, that's for sure.

My framerate is also bad in that particular spot. We're going to try out different ways of spawning the badies over there until my P4 2.00 Ghz can handle it.

Yes, we had reports of that on cards running DirectX7. The current fix is to type "ent_fire elitemask stopoverlays" in the console. I already know how to fix it for the update. It's just a couple of new lines in the material file to choose other materials depending on those DX settings.

Thanks for playing.
I think some more func_vehicle_clip entities will make things easier in those airboat maps. I'm still not fully convinced that airboat = straight lines, big jumps and "exclusive airboat enviroments". The purpose of those levels is to make good use of the vehicle in unexpected circumstances.

I think the biggest problem is not the orientation of the bridge (which was needed to let the player see that nice collapsing effect), but rather the teleportation that has taken place since the end of Ep1 to that map. You're basically up in a mountain now. Maybe Gman moved the train somehow...

At the end of Ep1, your train is moving on a straight line away from the citadel.
At the beginning of Ep2, the train has fallen from the railway, which is now turned 90? in relation to the Citadel, which in turn is many more kilometers away.

It's an off-topic question, but why is that bridge not pointing towards City17 at the beginning of Ep2? And why is it so far-far away from where it was when the Citadel blew up?

Use it in areas that are not complicated in terms of VIS. I've made a little test map and it does reduce r_speeds. Just be careful with those little portals.

Intersecting brushes will only have an impact in the compile process. The extra bits are discarded during the BSP procedure and will not affect r_speeds at all. I've made several test maps in the past to be sure of that.
Leaving 1 unit between a brush and the floor is one of the worst things you can do. By doing so, you're creating an extra little vis-leaf which the compiler tools and the engine will have to keep track of. That small leaf will make a rather simple VIS turn into absolute madness if we're talking, for example, about a bunch of pillars that don't touch floor or ceiling.

There was more than one place with rpg ammo, if I'm not mistaking. I know we could move that to another place in that same area, but it would just make the combat easy and boring. It think it's ok the way it is. (or maybe there's a third possibility...)

Thanks for taking a look. We are adding those bugs to the list.
The things you mention really show you really looked around. The battery you found is not for that scanner. It has to be used somewhere in the map where you found it. It's a secret after all
I think yours is a good review. Unlike some people, you have given us insight as to what needs to be changed or improved, but at the same time you've proven that some players appreciate the little details.For us, it's important to know what doesn't work, but also what worked and what people liked.
The strider battle is challenging but I don't think it's that hard, considering there are two RPGs available and lots of health and ammo around. You just have to move quickly (logical considering there's a strider and a sniper looking for you!).

We're going to change that part a bit when we update. The key is in the back room behind the altar.

Mmm. I think what to do is pretty straightforward from map3 onwards...
And finding out what to do in an area is part of the game. Maybe Playbus and I have been playing different kinds of games besides Painkiller and Serious Sam, so we like this kind of exploration approach.
Just the way not everybody likes Doom3 (even if it's technically good), we don't expect all of our unprofessional maps to be of everyone's liking.
Some of the feedback we're getting is good. Some of it is good but hidden between senseless whining, and other things are just a matter of personal taste. Our priority are the technical issues right now.

I'm also announcing that those who have had problems with this one can volunteer for playtesting in the next installment. We'd probably solve a lot of problems by having different types of players play through.
Maybe even having different routes or ways to do things, both for players who like to observe and think, and players who just like everything thrown in their face.
And yes, I'll never understand this tone of voice from some people. You give them something you worked on very hard for free, and they expect the 7 wonders of the world wrapped in gold and with a Valve seal. My area of expertise had only been architecture up to know, and I think the architecture in "The Citizen" does the job well in most places.
Edit: Ok, I did some HL1sp stuff before, but it had nothing to do with this.

Edit#2:I think a lot of complaints are also derived from people having a hard time by looking for problems inside the maps. I would understand it if people complained that it's hard to get something from the water with the leeches attacking you. Well, you don't have to jump in the water, so it's your decision. Leaving the shop when there's a Combine squad coming from that side is also a voluntary decision. The Do Not Press buttons are also a perfect example. Irritating that metrocop in map1 is also something you do on your own. The list is endless. Just because we created the a chance of doing something bad for you doesn't mean you have to do it. They are not requirements to complete any of the maps.

Still, I think it people are really giving us a lot of credit with this criticism (maybe subconsciously) by expecting Valve quality in the maps and gameplay mechanisms of this 8 month project.
As I said, it's my first HL2SP work ever, and I think we can be more proud of the good things we've done than cry about the bad things that have only really bothered some people to the point of ruining the experience.

from my point of view this mod has a long way to go

Great. Welcome to the world of amateur level designers. Welcome to my first hl2sp maps EVER. :D. It's funny how you don't mention how far it actually went. Which just makes your opinion incomplete. But let's get on with the rest.

Why is it that some wood blocks barring doors can be smashed, while others that look the same cannot?

It's hard to keep track of every wood block in 16 maps, so it'd be great if you point out one of those places. By the way, metal bars are also blocking doors in several places. I hope you noticed they weren't made of wood.

If there's one thing Valve has taught me it's that player training is vital to a fun and succesful game

Then put it to good use and make a better mod than this one. And teach us with it.

I appreciate you trying puzzles that are out-of-the-norm, but most of what you've done is obscure and not applicable to what we've learned to expect in the HL2 world

Then you've just learned what to expect of "The Citizen" world, a hl2 modificiation.

Also, the lighting in many of the areas was a major hindance to some of the puzzles without a flashlight.

Again, examples would be helpful.

This has, without a doubt, the worst Airboat scene i've ever played. It is way too enclosed for a vehicle of that speed and size and there is far too much in the way of debris laying around, basically you're forcing people to zig-zang and twist their way through narrow corridors

That was the whole idea. At least you noticed. Just because there's an airboat everyone thinks it's an "airboat scene". It seems videogames today make people think very simplisticltly.

Acting. I know you probably did the best you can, but most of the speech and npc sequences in this mod make it feel cheap and tacky

Thanks. We didn't know they hadn't turned out Valve quality. Perhaps you could do some voices for the next installment? (I'm serious, we really need more voice actors).

7) Load times. You placed these so frequently and absurdly that I got more aggravated playing HL2 then ever before, the maps seem horribly optimised too, poor load times and poor performance in some very basic looking areas really turned me off.

Yes, some of the maps have performance issues, and most them take so long to compile that it was out of the question making them bigger or joining them.

I'm sorry, but this is the way a lot of us see it, and they are, whether you want them to be or not, very valid points.

Yet it seems not everyone had those problems. So it's still very subjective.

When it comes to me rating this map in the mapvault, this is why I think i'll be giving it a 2 or possibly 3 out of 5.

Yes, I'm sure that 3 out of every 5 maps in the mapvault is better than this mod :D.
If it makes you happy believing so, no-one is going to stop you.

We already have a list of bugs we need to fix. But among them I'm not willing to add "Make the door number overlays three times as big and glowing" or "Make the girl with the white top be waiting right outside your door" or "Give the player a crowbar to break out of his own room" or "straighten up maps4-6 so people can do airboat racing". I hope you understand what I mean.

You're absolutely right. But there's a difference between constructive criticism and what some people do.

and not "those people" who'll just say how good it is and not give criticism on it. you know who they are.

To be honest, I don't. In the +90 comments in Planet Phillip and Snarkpit, there's a lot of people I had never heard about who comment on the mod...

I never count that one! He never gets me
And I agree with Playbus. If we had used the basketball hoop as the wheel, the complaints would be horrible. Perhaps as a second option it wouldn't have been a bad idea.
One thing I'd like to mention too. Anyone who has played any of Playbus's maps (Day13,14,15) probably had an advantage as to knowing how difficult some of the puzzles could be.
About changing the gameplay mechanics. It's true, but what is a mod if you don't modify anything?

Oops. I just remembered about two more snipers. Thanks (where's the fifth?)

1)basketball court
2)Tunnels
3)church
4)yellow warehouse

I think the only real issues are the bugs that have happened to everyone.
Not being able to solve basic puzzles is a problem within the player. Some people can, others cannot. It doesn't mean the game or mod was badly made, it just means it was thought for a different approach in gameplay that requeries a attention to detail some people don't have. I'm not insulting anyone. FPS have this thoughtless thing about them. Minerva is pretty much run-and-shoot most of the time.
I han't made any decisions in the second map (the sewers) until Playbus sent me the map. It took me 10 seconds to figure out the button and door combinations, and about five minutes to use a brick to break the glass. Without him telling me anything. No hints at all. Same with playtesters.
Yes, we did use gateways for the crowbar and the HEV suit. And hints on where you need to have gotten them already. So unless we start putting big neon signs, I don't know how we could've done that easier.

So, the big question is. Who do we pay attention to? The people whose style of direct thoughtless gameplay felt out of place here? or the people who had no trouble whatsoever while playing the mod and enjoyed it the way we envisioned?
As Playbus said, we can't please everyone. For the next installment, we're probably going to aim it at the same demographic. After all, we're not Valve. We didn't make anyone pay to play. Next time, those who hated it can be sure to avoid it, and everyone will be happy

Our mistake was indeed not reverting the config file to default. But we HAD to include one because things like Chapters locked/unlocked are described in that file.
Speaking again about the Do Not Press buttons, it's a thing of common sense. The fact that you have a gun and an explosive oildrum nearby doesn't mean you have to make it blow up in your face. The fire symbol on the oil drum is a warning. The "Do Not Press" signs are also warnings. It's still kind of fun to ruin your building-mates's lifes by releasing them. We should've added some custom lines for that...

Let's address some of your issues.

at the begining of the game, before the player has any weapons, you spawn manhacks. thats really not fun.

This is absolutely false. YOU spawn the manhacks by pressing a button you shouldn't, destined for metrocops. You didn't get the joke, we're sorry, and you're not the only one.

but all your arcitechture is far far too small, buildings are too small, streets, rooms everything. it feels cramped and it doesnt feel like theres a work outside the mod. Ill come back to this point later.

That is just false. We used the correct HL2 dimensions and built the world to look bigger. There's quite a bit of scenery everywhere, and all the maps that can have a skybox do.

The voice acting is down right bad. you can see the thought is there, good dialouge, accents, but every single word sounds wodden, spoken as. if. there. WAS. a. serious. PUNCTUATION. issue. the sound quality is all right but the acting is bad. however I will easily let that slide as you actually HAVE voicve acting. go in the end thats a plus.

Well, at least you noticed the voice acting was there for a reason. Your opinion is very subjective. A lot of the dialogue is spoken really good. So that doesn't help us much.

there where loads of general bad spots mapping wise, jagged displacements in the middle of a roag Im trying to drive down, shitloads of phys enabled crates where the player wont see them

You were supposed to dodge things while moving. That was the idea and it isn't terribly difficult to do.

. snipers EVERYWHERE for no good reason.

Two snipers in 16 maps and you say EVERYWHERE? That kind of takes away any credibility from your review, I'm sorry to say.

the airboat scenes where rediculous in this regard. bouncing off the walls either side, and only traveling about a metre before having to get out again.

Probably half a meter, judging by how you measured things while playing.

driving sections should be BIG. with plenty of space.

There's no rule for that. You just made it up. And you answered yourself before. It's not a driving section, you need to get out quite a few times.

Health and ammo was sparse causing me to run around on 10 hp for most of the time.

That's wrong, and you can't back it up. There's plenty of ammo and hidden spots where you can get even more ammo.

you released the mod with your own personal control layout including god knows where the jump button was and inverted mouse.

We're sorry. I also had to configure the Ep2 controls when I installed it, yet I didn't cry about it.

most obvious gman placement ever.

That means you missed the rest of his placements, right?

everywhere seems to be high contrast or something. (full brightness, LCD moniter).

There's a lot of contrast to create the desired ambience. You can probably change settings inside your HL2 and monitor configurations to get it right without having to cry about it.

I had to noclip when I got stuck in a wall.

It doesn't help us if you don't tell us where.

all that said, scripted sequences where very good. and there where alot of nice ideas in place. also, this is hardly a fair review as I didnt finish the mod. I got too fed up with it. :/

That gives even more credit to your review.

sorry for being a bit harsh, its by far better than most mods, but these are the crits. its not bad, but theres alot that could do with fixing, or at least bearing in mind when you move on to your next project, no doubt you will just get better and better with source as you carry on.

We're sure the good outweighs the bad somehow, yet judging by your comments, we've done one of the most terrible pieces of hl2 mapping TWHL has ever seen.

what button? One of those "Do not Press" buttons?
They guys is pointing at a trapdoor. He specifically tells you not to mess with his car

You know we're more subtle than that!

Some textures seem to have preference over others in the Source engine. Sometimes it depends on the entity they are part of (func_detail vs func_illusionary), the place they are in (skybox, world) or what they are (for example the smg models seem not to be affected by glass when you see them through it, while the npc holding the weapon looks the way it should behind the glass).
I always find little things like that when I get stuck in some area in a game too!

And in case anyone wonders; no, you don't get to eat metrocop children in map13.