thanks guys. Steve im sorry if i sounded rude, but i'm a member of a number of forums, some not even having anything to do with HL or mapping and people NEVER want to answer questions to people who have only been there for a few days. I was using an Old Quake modeler, but i forget what it was, very basic, hard to animate, then i discovered Quark but i didnt have Quake anymore. ahwell. Im relativly new to HL modeling though. As far as maps go...i get good ideas, work them, then i have another idea and that map sits on my HD until i delete it. i have trouble staying focused. BTW i dont think the database for the general mapping questions is working properly.