life? Created 19 years ago2005-11-23 13:31:14 UTC by 38_98

I hate to say it.

I told ya so!

References plz... And use full context seventh.

Uh, I didn't say that.

You guys have just said a bunch of things, and again, did not base them on anything.

Sorry, the arguers against are the ones who are making arguments with no base?

Wrong. That's opinion.

Isn't that a little of a contradiction? I agree with you, though.

one of them is a man of science. He believes only what he can observe with his senses, or what can be measured.
I took two objects and placed them in front of him. I asked him if he believed that there are some kind of force pulling the two objects together. He obvious said yes, as it is gravity. well, you cannot measure gravity, only predict it through inspecific tests. How then can you believe in one force rather than another, if you can see neither nor?

So you're saying "instead of using the senses you have to usefully record events and predict similar things, make stuff up!". Very sensible.

Quotes aside. Religion was, I imagine (I'm talking about way back) founded by fear and ignorance. Sun worshippers, etc. to whom the sun was, reasonably, one of the most powerful, and, I suppose, strangest things they could see. People have watched it for thousands of years, travelled across the world, and found it different in ways which show such and such. Using reason and observation, science describes as much as we can find and examine.

Religion, on the other hand, has no logical foundation in what we see of the world. It's just fear, and, with many, greed and lust for power on the part of those who found them. In the middle ages, the religious in command could control and take from everybody by threatening them with God's wrath.

When religions disagree, what happens? There is no base to argue on, nothing that either party can point out to the other in the source, because they're all made up, with good intentions or otherwise, with no grounds. Then there are wars, genocide. When scientists disagree, what happens? Good ones will discuss what they have found with their peers, who can look at what the proposer has based their discovery on. Correct it, revise it, compare and contrast it to what we see and what we have seen.

This could have been better-organised, I know, but I'm in a little of a hurry. I expect this thread will still be around sometime when I can be more orderly.

Post-scripts on religion (mostly Christianity):

1. Why are religious people averse to death, natural or otherwise, when they believe that there is an all-forgiving god waiting to bring them to eternal bliss?

2. Those who put forward religion as 'people being nice to each other': is it really necessary to ignore massive advances in human knowledge and threaten everyone with burning for eternity just for people to be kind to each other? No, it isn't.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

Bonus points for the person who finds out who said that.

Leviticus 25
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

"My made up god is better"
"No mine is"

Usually, this is where the monkeys decide this is a good time to start killing eachother.

Bonus points for the person who finds out who said that.

Marx, wasn't it?

Yep, Google agrees.

Got a great Randy Newman song about him.

U WIN TEH PRIZE!!!11

Whats wrong with condemning homosexuality?

What's wrong with condemning black people?

Religion is a pointless waste of time and a pest, that generates hate. It has never been, and never will be a good thing. I guess Buddhism could make a possible exception. There is no God, even though it may seem incomprehensible to some people. There is no heaven and no hell. When you die, you just die and that's it. You just aren't anymore.

And for those of you, who are intense believers in Christianity, I'd reccomend watching Monty Python's "Life Of Brian".

Religion is a pointless waste of time and a pest, that generates hate. It has never been, and never will be a good thing. I guess Buddhism could make a possible exception. There is no God, even though it may seem incomprehensible to some people. There is no heaven and no hell. When you die, you just die and that's it. You just aren't anymore.

I agree, but, still, people have the rights to belive in what they want to, even if it doesn't make sence.

God stories has created more wars than peace.
And they say god is the good guy?
The good guys are those people who help their fellow citizens on earth.
The real heroes are those who send in money to the poor people in Africa.
But what has god done?
The story of god just makes more people die, so I say, it is not worth beliveing in.

(I'm not sure if what I just said maked any sence for you english guys, I lack words)

And for those of you, who are intense believers in Christianity, I'd reccomend watching Monty Python's "Life Of Brian".

Lol, Monty Python is teh shit

---

Quote:
Whats wrong with condemning homosexuality?

What's wrong with condemning black people?

Good answere.

---

You could also think like,, if you was born homosexual, would you kill yourself? :

Buddhists believe in achieving nirvana, which is a perfect state of mind, at one with the world. They also believe in re-incarnation. Their god is Buddha.

Ant:

re-incarnation, is that like, when you start to live again after you die?
You know, you re-born? :S

Re-incarnation means that your inner-self comes back to inhabit a new body: it could be an animal or a human. Its believed that if you led a good life (i.e. following the "rules" of Buddhism) then you would be re-incarnated as a human. However, re-incaranated souls (for want of a better word) do not remember their previous lives, although there have been many examples of people being able to remember detailed episodes in a previous life.

Interesting stuff.

Hmm,, I don't know about that,, but, that's just me.
I follow science to the end.

I'd like to point out some things.
There's a difference between the basics of a religion (all of them have some sort of message of love) and what people interpret by themselves. Just like there's a difference in between what I think is a Combine Transport Hub and what people will actually map, even following the rules.
The example of Christianity is very obvious. The original message of this religion says nothing about stealing from the poor and threatening with eternal fire (Middle Age) and is absolutely against killing (which makes the whole point of the Crusades very anti-christian).

Saying that religion induces violence is like saying that a pillow induces a pillow fight... At least with most religions. Violence and hatred have always been there. Before, during, and after these religions.

Some of them are valid as an ethical code, which is needed in every society. Other aspects of those religions seem very pointless.
The whole point of "People are good by nature and religion makes them bad" is doubtful...

Just to finish. Science is as human as religion. It has been wrong countless times. What scientist knew in ancient Greece is different than what Newtown said long afterwards, and centuries after Newton, Einstein proved that Newton's physics werent really accurate at all...

Ant buddhism do not beleive the Buddha is a god, he is the first person they beleieved to acheive enlightenment and taught it to many people, i beleive his original name was Siddartha Gautama or something really similiar, he is not a god to them, just human (now dead but obviously).

My bad. - Ant

Everyone here seems to be pulling out quotes as though they are to be beleived - WHY? what makes who said them right, why say the at all?

And to all these arguments about what good christianity does and what god does to people - you are not thinking it through - the good natured christians you are talking about are exactly that good natured - theyre actions come from within - it is entirely their choice to make and they do, the are entirely possible without a god. Religions are a way of seeying life put down by someone long ago, and picked up by many - i beleive good nature and wellbeing comes from how you feel inside, what YOU think you should do and what YOU beleive you should do.

Science probably isnt the best ideal to follow but i'll stick with it because its got something no religion truely has PROOF - and isnt proof the basis of all justice in our world? Think about it...

their actions come from within - it is entirely their choice to make

You'd be surprised what an important role education has in people. We could say that terrorists blow themselves up because they are bad-natured? Actually it's more like "That's how they've been educated".

That's what I was referring to in my post. God or no God, religions are an ethical code. The interesting thing is looking at the common values that all religions have. That would be the real part, the human part you can beleive.
About proof... nothing can be absolutely proven, not even this sentence. Just like Heisenberg said: If you can see an electron, you can't know its speed at that precise moment. If you know its speed, you can't see where it is since it's moving.

Perhaps things cant be entirely proven, yes. But by running the calculations ( i did physics in Year 12 ) and comparing it to what i see i can tell that it ( whatever is happening ) is a much more likely to be happening from the scientific reason than by an 'act of god'.

Religion and education are similiar if no the same, but religious education is in a way more radical and more bias than normal schooling. It teaches us to beleive these things happened these ways when there is no evidence - thus my point > Religions are teaching us things we shouldnt be taught and promoting us to conflict with those who disagree. This is the motive of terrorist bombers is it not? - westerners are evil, our religions tell us to attack, to defend our religion - our beleifs! IT SHOULDNT HAPPEN BUT IT DOES AND IT IS ALL BECAUSE OF RELIGION, it sucks

Now ive had enough of this discussion, i beleive i made my point. Lets talk about bunny rabbits or drugs i dont care

our religions tell us to attack

Not really. The terrorist bombers think they will go to paradise if they die while killing, but that's the only "religious" thing about it. There's a much more important political reason. Religion is the excuse that they use to lure people into killing.

Siddartha Gautama was a prince, a powerful one.

He saw people suffering in the streets on one of his walks, and announced that he was enlightened.

Before Buddha died, he told his followers to NOT worship him, as he was just a human.

see, our boy Jesus actually WAS God, well at least God was communicating through him.

our religions tell us to attack

This is entirly wrong.

Jesus taught Love and Peace. He told us to "turn the other cheek", meaning when someone beat you down, you turned so they could hit your other cheek as well.

His teachings were an inspiration to Gandhi's protests, where Gandhi was an inspiration to Rev. Martin Luther King jr. (Black Rights activist. Peacful)

Christians believe in only two commandments that you must live by to create a better world... "Love God, and Love your neighbor".

All that old testament stuff is Judaism.

Everything changed with Jesus.

Im pretty sure there is an area in Islam, in Muhamad's teachings that said they had to "Fight the Christians and Jews".  This small quote has been twisted as an excuse for them to attack.  You have to remember that when Muhamad taught, the only reason we can read it today is that his many pupils wrote it down.  This will obviously mess with the true meanings...

With Jesus, he told everything to his closest followers (The disiples), who took down only factual information. The accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are the ones present in the Bible. Everything else in the New Testament is a collection of letters from Churches to Churches describing certain events.

If you read these 4 accounts, you will find only fact, never opinion. What I mean is... Jesus never taught just by saying it... He used a teaching method of Parables, stories with deaper meaning. There are numerous that survived over the years that are present in these 4 accounts.

I've read them all, over and over... and NO WHERE does it say to ever attack anyone, nor have a mean thought about anyone, nor to even LOOK at someone the wrong way. Its quite the opposite.

I've read some of the posts (not the long ones , i'm to tired) but going back a few years, when i was in primary school, we had religion lessons (which i hated) and the guy says that it was mostly stories that were passed down by people about god and all, but what if the stories got messed up somewhere in the line? someguy forgot a part and made anyother part up to cover it up?, I'm not trying to say that this is right at all but just saying.

The Bible is a collection of stories and letters passed down, yes.

But... it is inspired by God, and the people who preserved it did it for God, a will that beats all others.

I've heard stories of people copying the Bible and making copies... when they handeled the sacred text, they had to bathe, wash there hands every time they wrote the name of the Lord, and so on...

Don't worry, they were careful.

Over millenias, words and stories are distorted, it's inevitable.
Through translations aswell, true meanings are lost.

These days, religion is just an excuse for governments to stage wars, in order to fulfill the will of the New World Order.

What's wrong with condemning black people?

Gays are a group of either sick or mentally-challenged people, not a race.

lol m0p, that is pretty retarded... Did you know christianity teaches against world government? Its called the division mandate, or somthing to that effect...

I wasn't really talking about the religion itself, but the oppurtunity for world leaders to create "religious wars".

um...

What is the New World Order?

... Rileymo..
That's one of the most retarded comments I've ever seen on TWHL. You actually believe that?
Gays are exactly like straights, only they have a different sexual prefferation. Furthermore, what about bisexuals? They're what, mentally challenged, but only alittle?
My god, you're like a 1960s youth infomercial.

crap lost my post.

A note, if it takes you more than a half an hour to post, TWHL seems to just ignore it

This is one of my very few posts, but i have to agree with you. Religion in my opinion is more commercial then you could ever imagine, for god sake, like i want to buy a T-shirt saying "Jesus loves you" or "Buddha loves you".

I'm just glad that this forum has the balls to discuss political matters, Rock on TWHL!

Whats wrong with condemning homosexuality?
I mean come on, look at how the different sex's bodys are formed, they were obviously not meant to have homo-relations.

Delve a bit into biology and you'll find out that that is far from true. To help you in your biology search, I've included a wiki link in this post. The wiki link in question will probably be very controversial for most people around here, so don't click unless you're sure of your sexuality. (Or click if you're unsure, but really don't care which way your sexuality goes.)

Among psychologists, it's also known that boys, generally before their adolesence, have homosexual tendancies which tend to dissipate with most boys, as they grow older. (And this is from a purely psychological point of view.)

Whether God / Allah / Jahweh / whomever intended it is, of course, a whole different story. This post is just from biological and psychological point of view.

Lastly, here's the wiki link in question. Like said, this isn't for people who are very conservative or unsure of their sexuality. (The latter tends to be a majority of the adolescent male populace.)

Wiki entry about the various pleasures concerning the rectum.

ahem....

God = Allah = Jahweh.

Different names dude...

Homosexuality is wrong. simple as that. Its a mental disorder, as being Hyperactive is a mental disorder, as being afraid of spiders is a mental disorder.

(UM! whats the New World Order?)
According to the Bible, it is a sin..

LET ME FINISH!

Everyone sins. I don't think the Church should alienate these people. thats right, Bratty believes Gays should be allowed in the Church. I mean, people who steal are allowed in the church (Under close supervision near the offering plate )... Everyone sins...

As much as I hate gay people, homosexuality is NOT wrong. It's just a different sexual preference. The bible is NOT the end all source of information. 99.9% of the bible is utter bullshit.

did you know that 97% of statistics are made up on the spot?

What about homosexuality with your dad? Is that wrong?

Just because something is in the bible means nothing. The only argument they -The bible/religion defenders- have going for them imo is whether humans are born with a moral ethic or any moral values whatsoever. While I'd like to believe we are, I really doubt it.

Which gives the bible or any bible with some sort of commandments a purpose, if for nothing else.

Humans are animals like any other, just with bigger brains and opposing thumbs...

@Bratty: You've used that already!

Actually it's more like "That's how they've been educated".

Exactly... that's what their religion tells them. The fanatic muslim terrorists believe, that the non-believers must die.
And, about gays... Men don't give birth. It's not natural for them to engage in intercourse with their own gender. I guess, I'd agree that it's a mental disorder. I don't judge them for doing what they do, as long as I don't get to know about it, and constantly be reminded of it. Like that thing about fags having sex in a public park to show how proud they are of their sexuality. Now, that's a nice sight for the families trying to enjoy some relaxation in the park...

Homosexuality isn't wrong. I have a few friends that are gay, you just treat them as if they were the gender they seem to be.

As for religion, nobody will agree on it. But, ponder this for a moment. Why are there more than a bunch of religions? Because people from all over the world found different ways of controlling the masses. Do you really think that there was a God back in pre-historic times? If so...why did nobody worship him?

The real answer is this. When we all die, nobody goes to "heaven" or "hell". These were made up because 1. People couldn't comprehend something ending, they had to believe, they just HAD to believe, that life went on. They just made up the difference between hell and heaven to make you want to do good so you won't go to hell. You just go to sleep real fast. Bam, life over, no senses, no thinking, no pearly gates or burning fires. Just. Nothing.

having sex in a public park

Wow honey, having this picnic was your best idea yet!! Would you mind passing me the---OMG!!! WHY GOD WAI!!!!!

Homosexuality is wrong. simple as that. Its a mental disorder, as being Hyperactive is a mental disorder, as being afraid of spiders is a mental disorder.

Stop being such a conformist bastard. You say homosexuality is wrong because it's a minority.

Being black is wrong. Simple as that. It's a skin disorder, as being tanned or having skin cancer.

Your arguements fail! People aren't "Supposed to" be anything, they're fucking animals. Animals with different sexual preferences.

Being black is wrong, isn't it?

God = Allah = Jahweh

Yeah, on that I agree, but I know some people might be offended by that anology, hence why I didn't make it.

having sex in a public park

That's bull. As if only gay people practice that? Are you really that narrowminded? I've seen more hetrosexual people screwing eachother in public than gays. In fact, I've never seen gays shagging in public. And even if they would shag in public, then that says jack about their sexual preference. It only says anything about their manners. Which, just to make this clear, are totally independant of sexual preference.

According to the Bible...

And this is why I hate religious people who feel that their religion need to be dragged into everything. If a muslim would make the exact same statement as you did, but only starting his sentence with "According to the Koran...", would you agree with him or start argueing about which book is better?

On the subject of books; books have writers. Writers are subjective. Writers are extremely subjective if they believe in something and want to write about it. Where I'm going? The bible is, supposidly, written by the disciples of Jesus. I'm all cool and dandy with that concept, but then keep in mind that the bible is not an accurate tale of events and should be treated as the story told from one subjective point of view. This means that the bible should not be treated as the definitive word and will of God, simply because the story is being told in a subjective manner and there's no way to verify that what's written, is actually true. (Which makes religion even funnier, as this whole argument also counts for the Koran and other holy scripts. World religions are based on books which might as well be fake and are unverified, yet no-one seems to be bothered with that possibility.)

And even if the Bible was the definitive word and will of God, then the countless rewrites by the Church (and other religious organizations who've rewritten the scripts) have rendered the bible useless, as in those countless rewrites, lots of changes have been made and propaganda inserted. (These would then be called 'improvements'. Heh, jokers.)

Somebody here mentioned heaven and hell and how they were just added to scare people into not comitting 'sins'; he's totally right and it's a good example of added or changed material.

So, if people are just animals, so if there's nothing after this life...

why live at all? To have some fun now, and then nothingness?

That can't be all, and luckily, it isn't all. God has made us with a purpose, to have contact with Him, a friendship, a good relationship. That alone is what really forfills our lives.
God gave us a free will, so we can choose ourselves to love Him. The Bible tells us humanity chose against God, and sinned against Him. Which is exactly what happens now: people don't believe in God, deny His existence, make up their own theories on life, create their own religions, go for their pleasure and lusts rather than thinking about God and how He intended us to live. His intentions are perfect, He knows us better than anyone else and despite our sins, still loves us. So much in fact that He let His own son Jesus die for our sins, so we can be reunited with God again rather than having to face the puishment for our sins.

Argumentation? Try it out yourself. Accept Jesus into your heart by simply praying to God and asking forgiveness for your sins. I've grown up with church whole my life, but besides just being interesting it never did anything to me untill I repented from my sins and decided to live for God. That changed my life, in a very good way I might say.

Some still dont understand that:
There's a difference in the principles of a religion and what some people do to take advantage of it. To put it simple with this example:
Nihilanth is a god and he says "Dont kill people". But there's an alien-slave that says "Let's kill Gordon Freeman in the name of Nihilanth". It would be very stupid to argue that the alien-slave kills because of Nihilanth's teachings. Most people ignore the basics of those religions. They judge them for what evil people have done with them, forgetting about their ethical message.

About racism. I dont really get the point. Black football (soccer) players receive all sorts of racist commentaries in some European stadiums. Now the question is: Would it be considered a racist insult if someone yelled "monkey!!" at Beckham? The answer is no. Why? 'Cause he doesnt look like one?? That would imply that those other players do, which is utter NONSENSE. I mean, I wouldnt get upset if I went to some African country and people started calling me "White-skinned man!" That's how I was born. It's not an insult. End of story.

Captain: If that works for you, great. So don't get me wrong and feel I'm trying to discount your opinion, which i''m sure is completely valid to you.

But I think you had it in your first sentence, as well other people have mentioned it.

It's hard for our brains to understand certain things, like multi-dimensional objects--> 3--, Infinity, and not least of which, coming to grips that there is nothing when we die.

Just because you don't understand it, doens't make it necessarily untrue.

I for one dont know if there's anything after life, but I do know that none of you know either
Unless there are some twhl zombies online. Doubt it...

CP, that's the weakest of argumentations I've heard in years. Since we've had a similair discussion before, I won't repeat myself, as you already know how I feel about that. Well Okay, I'll repeat one point that I made last time;

Accept Jesus into your heart by simply praying to God and asking forgiveness for your sins.

Apparently I'm born with sins and need to turn to God according to some narrowminded rules to become 'better'. Hrm yes, that leaves me with the problem of not having commited any sins upon leaving the womb. Not even according to the 10 commandments did I commit any sins upon birth. Also, care to clarify those 'sins'? Do you even know what those dreadful sins are that apparently every human makes? Or are you just citing that book of yours or the sunday preaches?

Like said in the beginning of this post; your post was the most hollow and weak 'argumentation' I've seen in a long time. And this also is another argument; you're always very clever but when it comes to religion, you get blinded and start shouting random unargumented nonsense.

Lastly; since you reckon your variant of Christianity rules them all, care to clarify why its better than all other religions? Or just regular Christianity? Don't give me the weak talk of "Believe in Him and you'll see!!", give me some actual stuff I can work with. For all I care, describe what you're seeing, that makes your religion so perfect. I'd reaaaaaly like to know.

Good point Kasperg.

Also no matter what, I suppose it doesn't matter so much if you really think about it.

If there is: Great! Nothing to worry about, with unlimited poly limits!

If there isn't: Great! Because you'll have absolutely no Idea anyway, because duh, you'll be dead

I'm liking this conversation, good practice ground for witnessing

Anyways, I agree with Captain P, Christianity is a personal relationship with God. It's your choice to go to him, and he says that he will forgive you. Ever sence I accepted him into my life, I have been different. It's become very hard to do any wrong, I can't even lie very well anymore. Every time I try, I get this sinking feeling, and it's usually enough to cause me to think twice. This is more than a believe people, this is real.

I get that sinking feeling just because I have morals. But that might just be a flaw in my programming.

DarkKilauea and Cpt P:
It's great if you feel that way. It's great if you feel there's a god. It's great if it helps you live your life better.
Thing is, I just think religion is a load of bull.

Also, SETHorian: Excellent post(s).