The Al Jazeera Memo Leak Created 18 years ago2005-11-23 16:38:54 UTC by Mephs

Linky.
I'm not so much shocked at the fact that the idea ever crossed Bush and Blairs minds (Al Jazeera buildings have been bombed during the war, though not officially targeted) but rather the response the allegations.
Newspapers have been threatened with breach of the official secrets act if they publish anything more on the matter, but surely it is not a matter of national security unless they have future plans to do so!
In my opinion its a sad day for freedom of speech when so called democracies threaten to jail the press for publishing something that happened over a year ago...

No! It is justified.

<speaks to unseen persons off-camera>

Justified.

aa twhlwillbethelastplaceforfreespeechoneaaaarrrghkfump

I know this probably doesn't apply to the entire world, and it has nothing to do with what you are saying, but:

Im sick of Liberals always crying about Free Speech...

Here in America, we have free speach... meaning that someone can say whatever they want about the government and politics without being jailed... Obviously, People have taken this the wrong way, saying such idiot conclusions as "We can use whatever profanities we want on TV... Its Freedom of Speech", when they don't allow the slightest religious reference in public schools and government builds as to protect "Seperation of Church and State", when "Seperation of Church and State" only means the government cannot force you to be a certain religion, or make you believe something by force.

wew... I could go all day...
Im hungry though...

(I'd be the best Filobusterer...)

"I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it."

• Voltaire

"Its too bad that common sense isn't common."

• Voltaire

Well, schools should obviously not teach that any specific religion is "correct", but they should educate about all religions.
In public speeches and such, I believe that saying that one religion is good is fine, saying every other religion sucks isn't.

Alot of attention has been directed to a pastor named ?ke Green in the swedish press lately, who, in one of his local sermons, said that homosexuals where a cancer, and that the tsunami in asia was gods punishment against homosexuality.
He got charged for hets mot folkgrupp(Literally, "Mocking a minority" or something) - but critics have said it's just freedom of speech.
I'm not sure where I stand in the issue - he was indeed just "representing the lifestyle praised in the bible", but, still, saying homosexuals are less worth than heteros in any form is wrong.
(Later on, there was a huge demonstration against the charges against ?ke Green, which I think is pretty sick. Stop defending the homophobe, damn it.)

Just thought the story'd quite fit in here.
As for the Al Jazeera and so on post, it's ofcourse wrong to bomb any free media stations without absolute proof they're actively helping the resistant forces or spreading harmful propaganda.
As for the british government silencing the media, that's just bad. They shouldn't, unless said media was being racistic or whatnot, or encouraging people to commit crimes.

(Good thread, nubs)

Replace religious lessons in schools with first aid training!

replace religious lessons in school with H?ltimme!

I know this probably doesn't apply to the entire world, and it has nothing to do with what you are saying, but .... Here in America, we have free speach... meaning that someone can say whatever they want about the government and politics without being jailed...

That has everything to do with this thread! My very point is that rather than the as per usual injunction against the media, the British government (rumoured to be heavily leaned on by the Whitehouse on this) is directly saying: if you say anything more on the subject you will go to jail. To my mind its the first time the government has ever directly threatened to imprison members of the press and I don't like its implications.

when "Seperation of Church and State" only means the government cannot force you to be a certain religion, or make you believe something by force.

Unless the definition of "seperation of church and state" is given in the US constitution (which I don't know, as it isn't my constitution, so feel free to let me know if it is or is not given), seperation of church and state means just that;

Church (hence: religion) may not affect the state (or anything related to the state). So if there is no definition given, then this means that religious based political parties would be forbidden as would be any influence from religion on the functioning of the state.

Though I'm fairly sure a definition is given (it wouldn't be smart to not give a specific definition, for the simple fact that you can then interpret such text in multiple ways, which'll lead to trouble sooner or later), I just thought I'd add that little bit..

And, like said, if there is a specific definition given, please let me know.

SEThorian...

We have to keep in mind what out ForeFathers meant by what they wrote...

Remember the whole reason the American colonies were formed?
(From the people's perspective, not the British Governments...)

Mephs...

Just a question...

Would you be willing to give up some of your privacy and freedoms in order to prevent an event like 911 from happening?

I don't mean all your rights, just like... Allowing the government to put taps on our phones or something...

ZL,

Please don't judge all Christians by what some nutjob Lutheran said

but, still, saying homosexuals are less worth than heteros in any form is wrong.

I agree... Even though I disagree with what they.. um.. do... since it is obviously denounced in the Bible (Leviticus and Corenthians I ), They are still people and should be treated fairly.

I'm not sure what the Socialist Government of Sweden's laws are... but arresting someone for saying something like that would never happen in America, even if they said "America Sucks, down with Bush, Burn the Whitehouse". They would just get a bunch of odd looks...

some hippies might comes join him...

Seventh,

Replace First Aid in Schools with euthianasia lessons...

replace religious lessons in school with H?ltimme!

Y'what? Hammertime? Nooo.

Replace First Aid in Schools with euthianasia lessons...

There aren't first aid lessons in schools. Not here, at least. That's what I'm bemoaning. What's your point of view on your suggestion, anyway? You're saying that teaching people to actually save others' lives is murder?

Would you be willing to give up some of your privacy and freedoms in order to prevent an event like 911 from happening?

It wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway, since this is a forum :): certainly not.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

• Benjamin Franklin ("one of the most prominent of Founders and early political figures and statesmen of the United States")

H?ltimme = long break, like an hour long, at least

Free time, basically.

Would you be willing to give up some of your privacy and freedoms in order to prevent an event like 911 from happening?

No.

Seventh: That's an excellent quote, really useful in such debates ;).

I'm not sure what the Socialist Government of Sweden's laws are... but arresting someone for saying something like that would never happen in America, even if they said "America Sucks, down with Bush, Burn the Whitehouse". They would just get a bunch of odd looks...

Well, first of all, the government in sweden's not at all socialistic in the sense that it's most usually meant. Capitialists all the way.
Second, he wasn't arrested for saying it, but for preaching it in a public place.
Surely, someone screaming "Niggers die" on a plaza in America would be arrested?

no... They would not be arested...

We have "Freedom of Assembly"
and "Freedom of Speech".

Ever read our Bill of Rights?

Thats why this place is known as the Land of Liberty.

(Anyone who yells "Niggerz Die!" In a Plaza here would probably get jumped Then, the police would arrest the people who attacked him. I feal sorry for our Police here... They have so many restrictions on catching criminals... They could get sued for just about anything.. Loose their Job... or go to jail themselves...)

I don't mean all your rights, just like... Allowing the government to put taps on our phones or something...

If I could trust them, yes. But who watches them? Its not a question of merely not wanting people watching me, its the fact that such a power could easily be abused and most certainly will. I still consider the British as an occupying force, so I sure as hell don't trust them tapping phones over here (draconian surveilance and 'policing' and its abuse is something we've been living with in Northern Ireland for decades, don't forget).

The separation of Church and State is as much to protect religions as it is government from lunatics. Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming into what should be a purely political thing. Just because Al Qaeda mentions Allah doesn't mean that the Americans and English need to respond with their own God endorsement. While its good for drumming up support in the bovine masses, it pisses on everything holy. Religion is NOT influencing politics, propaganda machines on both sides are flying religious flags in spite of the Church. Its quite blasphemous in my opinion, especially the whole bypass of Jesus' teachings (Bush can fit a vengeful God into his speeches but neglects ALL of Jesus' teachings).

Freedom of speech is indeed one of the most important things we have, i think that we should be allowed to say "i hate niggers" or "niggers are bad" in TV and all different medias, feminists are allowed to say "men are pigs" "men are walking dildos" and such, but then again, im working on getting feminism ilegal... I don?t think i?ll make any progress with that but it?s fun doing it.

But who watches them? (ed.: with them, he refers to the government.)

That's the job of the media.

Post-feminist comedy is still deemed witty and on edge though, since from the year dot men have made similiar jokes. It can be considered ironic and therefore argued inoffensive. But yes, its getting old. Concerning the nigger thing, I don't think society is quite ready for that yet, its only fair game when the culture you're bashing is on a level footing and despite what people say, black people are still oppressed. Its freedom of speech when you're voicing an opinion, but saying "I hate niggers" is really just shouting a community down and inspiring hatred.

So yes Tosse, you should have the right to, but I should have the right to then knock the shit out of you for exercising that right.

That's the job of the media.

And if you read what happens when they do, ie the topic, it comes full circle. Police. State.

Use the edit button fool! (Good points though.)

The feminists over here are fucking berserking. Some of the many quotes from an FI party member, aired on national television, were "We have to go from equality to feminism", "All men are potential rapists" and the infamous "Men are pigs".
It's getting annoying.

this place is known as the Land of Liberty

*was

FI party

Femenist, and their "colour" is the most stereotypically female one?

Haven't seen Guantanamo Bay in the news for quite some time (I'm assuming that's the source of the picture.)
And they call it democracy.

Surely, someone screaming "Niggers die" on a plaza in America would be arrested?

no... They would not be arested...
We have "Freedom of Assembly"
and "Freedom of Speech"

Wait, if the 'Freedom of speech' act allows people to say that in public, and then not arrested, is surely ignoring Human rights saying that Whites and blacks are equal. They seem to cross over each other.

So, its good to have 'Freedom of speech' because then you can say what you want about the government and not get thrown in jail. But then such things seem to stop other rights and acts, which is bad. Confusing in a way.

And such abuse there in 7th's picture is what is just so bad about this occupation.

Seventh...

Does it concern you who the people are in those pictures?

They are criminals... If this picture is from some Iraqi prision camp, let me let you in on a little secret... Our prisoners over there are treated better than our criminals here. They have much more liberties than our very own scum... Which I think is ridiculous...

Those people want to blow me up for the mere fact that Im American...
I say we should treat them like the scum they are...

They are criminals...

No, they're not.

Google on Guantanamo Bay trials

Sixth amendment

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

As far as I know, all the parts I have emboldened have been completely ignored. God, we can't tell them what they're being tried for, that's a national secret! Stalinists. Freedom except for dirty foreigners, eh? Land of the free.

Last time I checked, most of them hadn't even been charged for anything, they're just being held there until further notice (Which has been what, 2 years?)
I find it pretty amazing that the place doesn't get more medial attention then it does.
I guess sweden's done its part in protesting against it, allthough much more could be done...

Former Guantanamo detainee, the Swede Mehdi Ghezali was freed on July 9, 2004 after two and half years internment. Ghezali has claimed that he was the victim of repeated torture. His lawyer has declared that he intends to sue the US for their treatment of him.

Those people want to blow me up for the mere fact that Im American...

Did you get ANY education on terrorists' their motives whatsoever? Sure, there might be terrorists who want to do that, but the majority don't. What they want to accomplish is not to kill civillians, that's their strategy. They want American withdrawal from the Middle East. If they'd spread their words through peaceful manners and their offered replacements would actually be good (instead of the Sharia), then they'd have my respect.

But yeah, if you want to believe that they want to kill you just because you're American, feel free. Freedom of speech and thought. Fantastic amendment, though currently being poorly executed by the US Government.

They have much more liberties than our very own scum...

You were already blurting out some pretty crazy stuff, but this topples it. Sorry, but why should I take you serious anymore concerning this subject?

Exactly Seth. The main problem, however is the entanglement of religion and politics to the point where the vast majority of Americans haven't a notion why they are being targeted in the first place. Also I think this goes for the Middle Eastern nations as well. The underlying problem is a political one which has been totally obscured by jingoism and psuedo-religious crap.

You people have no clue what your saying...

Fine, believe everything the media tells you.

Im done with this thread.

Fine, believe everything the media tells you.

I would, but they're being threatened with jail, in the interests of 'freedom' and all...

Fine, believe everything the media tells you.

You do realise that your posts in this thread could've been ripped off straight from the Fox News?

You're the one who, apparently, just believes what the media and authorities are telling. You're the one not defending your statements with arguments and / or facts and you're the one who obviously has not done much, if any, research into this matter. You're just blurting.

So, everybody arrested is guilty and may be inclosed for several years without an accusation whatsoever. Soooo, you wouldn't mind being arrested tomorrow as a terrorist and being very nicely detained in Guantanamo Bay? Of course, as long as they don't beat you, they're not torturing you!

Torturing can be done in many ways, beating or performing surgergy without anesthetic isn't the only way to go.

All muslims should be burned imo.
If it's the muslim world vs. everyone else, then I choose everyone else. Eventually, I think we'll have to exterminate them... Us or them, simple as that. Survival.

And as far as Gitmo is concerned, they're being treated rather well imo. "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" so to speak, if it were up to me...

Facism pwns w00t!

"All muslims should be burned imo."

Yeah...LETS GO KILL ALL OF THEM THEY DONT AGREE WITH US SO LETS BURN THEM ALL AND ALSO GENERALIZE THEIR PEOPLE

Raises American flag and complains about the French

Obviously you don't understand their doctrine.

They don't tolerate other religions or beliefs whatsover...it's hail Allah, or die.

Also they routinely bomb little kids, like what just happened in Iraq. They were giving out teddy bears to little kids and their mothers, and some crazy fcuking douche bag muslim fcuk killed like 50 of them with a car bomb.

That's enought justification for me right there to incinerate the lot.

So I guess what I really mean is that you are either a fcking moron, or severly misguided.

little kids and their mothers

Most of those kids probably were muslims too, aren't you happy?

Killing women and children, first person, illustrates how fucked up they are.

I guess if you wanna get technical about it, you'd only really have to kill all the men, and maybe the boys too past a certain age.

Didn't the Vikings do this, and assimilate the women and kiddies into there culture? Seems like a good plan to me.

Do you really think all muslim men are terrorists?

If a murderer gets arrested in America, do you want to arrest the whole town he was living in?

I guess if you wanna get technical about it, you'd only really have to kill all the men, and maybe the boys too past a certain age.

Guess what their sons would want? Reveange their fathers.

Ah that's why I said it about the boys you redundant dunderhead In other words, no shit sherlock

Do you really think all muslim men are terrorists?

As I already made clear, I really don't care If they all are or not. What matters is that there is no way to tell the good ones from the bad ones, so you just have to cut out all the cancer and start over, imo.

If a murderer gets arrested in America, do you want to arrest the whole town he was living in?

An interesting Idea. Let me think about it

Around 900-1400 million people are muslims today, you're suggesting we kill the lot?

Rowleybob, you're even worse than Rileymo. Not only were your previous comments racistic and idiotic, they're proof of how rabid and ignorant Americans are (Uh, americans like.. rowleybob. Not everyone, ofcourse.)

Islam is very much like christianity. They worship a god, they have a prophet idol, they follow commandments and have rituals.

Saying what you just said is exactly like saying, "Oh look, that christian killed someone...
Lets wipe out christianity!"

My god, go read a newspaper or something. Better yet, read wikipedia.

@ZombieLoffe: No, it's not the same thing and you know it. Who really listens to Sweeds with superiority complexes anyway?

900-1400 million people are muslims today, you're suggesting we kill the lot?

Yeah.

What's your solution if you don't like mine? Yours would be something like, we have to be kinder and gentler and hold their hand until they stop murdering innocent moms and kids and doggies etc.

Well fuck you and your liberal doctrine. It's the do-gooders like you that are wrong with this world. You said it yourself we are animals, and I completely aggree. Survival of the fittest.

Inconsistent much?

We are wild beasts, nothing more.

Trying to pretend that we are anything else--like painting lipstick on a mule--that what we are causes more suffering, not less, and is at the very best a complete waste of time.

Rowely, Muslims arent suicide bombers or hate mongers, oppressors etc. The teachings of Mohammad are akin to those of Jesus, it is merely how people decide to manipulate them. In short, you're talking shite son.

So you're saying killing off one sixth of the worlds entire population would ease the suffering of said population?

Shit, here's a better idea...
Why don't we kill off Americans all together? They're fewer, and alot more people'd be really happy they were gone. Now that'd ease the suffering of billions.

But, no one will, since this is a relatively civilized society. Get a grip and go find some real arguements instead of your warped minds sadistic fantasies. Twat.

And yes, it is the fucking same thing and I know it.

@Mephs:That's your opinion

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Christians any better.

The point is, like the Hilghlander, there can be only one

o you're saying killing off one sixth of the worlds entire population would ease the suffering of said population?

I already said yeah. Human life is cheap nowadays, like it or not.

ZombieLoffe you are living in a dream world. The sooner your lot wakes up, the better it will be for everyone. Do I expect that to happen anytime soon? Not a chance in hell, but one can dream, can't one?

The signpost reads: "Caution: Misery Ahead"

I have a number of very close friends from both religions. From my Muslim friend I have learnt that the extremists aren't classed as real Muslims. They are just maniacs who like to blow themselves up, but can't think of a reason.

rowleybob , in my opinion your the only extremist here!

EDIT: Human life is cheap? Now thats just sick...

Or realist, take your pick.

Why don't we kill off Americans all together?

Great Idea, no you just have to figure how to implement that idea

Fact is you don't have ideas that aren't spoon fed to you. Try thinking for yourself once in a while. Twat Indeed.

The only thing that is sadistic here is the Idea that we can solve all the worlds problems with diplomacy and no bloodshed or real work.

Someday you will understand, or at least I hope you will.

I'm not scheduled to be sent to the mental institute for another 14 years....

We can have a friendly conversation and a cool beer in the year 2019

I'll see you there

But by that time, I'll be in power, and the euthanasia laws will be in effect... Sorreh

Fact is you don't have ideas that aren't spoon fed to you. Try thinking for yourself once in a while. Twat Indeed.

Rowely, if you were a free thinker yourself you wouldn't be coming out with half of the crap you currently are. I don't think you're bogeyman view of the entire muslim faith was a rational conclusion you came to by yourself.

So what is you standing point on the topic? Should governments jail members of the press for publishing 'embarrassing' (an understatement) memos or not?

This is a really simple concept mephs, that I thought even you would be able to understand, but apparently not. So we'll try it again...

Survival of the fittest, period.

The stronger ones prevail over the weaker ones, and go on. Leaving all the others to history. It will happen eventually, when our already bloated world population is at each other's throats for the last drop of fresh water, or oil, or whatever. Then we'll see how "civilized" humans really are.

I don't know how to make it any simpler for you.