I watched Jesus Camp with my wife last night.

It was nominated for the best documentary in 2006, and we've been wanting to watch it for some time.

For us atheists, the film portrays an alarming picture of how young children are brain-washed by religious (Christian, specifically) rights to become "soldiers for the army of God".

These Christians demonize Muslims and they're taught to hate everyone except Christians. The intolerance and militancy of the tone made me cringe.

The most scary part is that it's all true and it's happening right now in churches all over the United States.

If you replaced "Jesus" with "Hitler", and "Christianity" with "Nazism", the similarities between these social movements may shock you.

Some people just don't know what the bible says when it says "love thy neighbour"
It's sad that people would do something like that.

The intolerance and militancy of the tone made me cringe.

Don't worry. These people aren't real christians, they're the Al-Queda of Christanity.

Another good reason for me to have left church for good, however.

Fucked up. I wouldn't call them Christians at that point though, Jeff's right. More idiots-- very dangerous idiots.
I can't wait to see what Huntey has to say about Jesus Camp.

Keep in mind that this is a very, very small minority of American Christians.

I wouldn't go as far as comparing them to Nazis. The underlying beliefs of these two ideologies are very different, even if they may seem similar on the surface. Honestly, I'm tired of people comparing other groups and people to Nazism. I hear it about the far right and the far left. People likened Bush to Hitler and now they liken Obama to Hitler. It's ridiculous. No present leader or group has come anywhere close to the atrocities committed by Hitler and his Nazi regime. Yes, lets marginalize the horrors committed during that time so we can demonize current groups and leaders. Great plan :rly:

Do they Christian Side Hug?

The link above is broken.

Fucked up. I wouldn't call them Christians at that point though, Jeff's right. More idiots-- very dangerous idiots.

And powerful too. They re-elected George W. Bush.

I won't ever compare Bush to Hitler. For one, Hitler is far more talented.

I am comparing Jesus to Hitler. Both are charismatic. Both are very articulate and intelligent. Both are natural leaders.

I wouldn't exactly call Hitler talented or a good leader. He was only a good leader in the sense that he was good at convincing people to believe his lies - as is typical of most politicians. His practical leadership qualities weren't much, as he made a series of major errors that left his country in far worse shape than when he had taken power. Hitler's "leadership" absolutely destroyed his country.

As much as you may like to dis on Bush, not even he can make that claim.

And powerful too. They re-elected George W. Bush.

Unfortunately.

Pirate: Hitler convinced millions of Germans to side with him by exploiting patriotism as his main weapon. That takes talent.

Being a talented liar is one thing, being a talented leader is something completely different.

Being a talented leader requires that you're a talented liar at some point.

I'll just leave with this:

Directed at the Christians of TWHL; if you had been born in, for example Mecca to Islamic parents, do you really think you would have ended up Christian?
95% of people who follow a church/holy writing were taught it from a young age, and it continues to baffle me that despite this clear derailment of logic - people continue to follow these writings.

Whether it's a parent who knows no better or a Jesus Camp - they're all doing the same, and to claim that your Christianity is not their Christianity is not as true as you might want to think.
Yes, these people are complete nut-jobs, but more subtle evangelism is just as dangerous.

edit:
For the record, Hitler brought Germany out of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. He was a very skilled leader.
Shame he was also deranged, racist and homicidal.

An effective leader can convince and motivate a large group of people to do whatever he/she wants them to do.

It has nothing to do with whether they are achieving something useful or good.

Hitler was able to do just that. Like Huntey said, his goals just happened to be messed up.

I am not saying that Hitler is good, I am just saying that Jesus might be evil.

Having faith means believing in something without questioning it. I think a healthy dose of skepticism is always a good thing.

Having faith means believing in something without questioning it. I think a healthy dose of skepticism is always a good thing.

I think I might need to get a humongous poster of this made. Such a good quote.

95% of people who follow a church/holy writing were taught it from a young age, and it continues to baffle me that despite this clear derailment of logic - people continue to follow these writings.

Yes, it is a derailment of logic if people follow these things blindly. But from the things I have experienced in my life, it would be a derailment of logic to deny what I believe. My beliefs are not founded upon what I have heard others say, but the things I have experienced firsthand. My faith is a logical conclusion, not a blind assumption. Shall I abandon logic so that I may blindly assume the same thing that you believe? I certainly would not expect you to abandon logic and blindly assume what I believe.

Furthermore, I have as good understanding of science as nearly any atheist, so do not assume my faith is based upon lack of knowledge.

Yes, these people are complete nut-jobs, but more subtle evangelism is just as dangerous.

There may be a select few who are nut jobs, but it is blatantly ignorant to put all evangelists into this category. Intolerance is a two-way street. You can't accuse such people of being intolerant and then attach such hateful labels to them yourself.

For the record, Hitler brought Germany out of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. He was a very skilled leader.

By the time Germany surrendered, it was in worse shape than when Hitler had taken power. The country was literally in ruins. Not the hallmarks of a skilled leader. A better example would be someone like FDR, who took the US out of its worst economic crisis and made it into a world superpower. Hitler did have some good leadership qualities, including excellent charisma, but his ability to make rational decisions was very poor.

These Christians demonize Muslims and they're taught to hate everyone except Christians. The intolerance and militancy of the tone made me cringe.

Wrong, the bible teaches us to love everyone and try to explain somebody the importance of God in the Universe.

The problem with all of you atheists is that you consider us believers a bit derailed. Perhaps there are a lot of those a bit derailed, coming even from christian people. As an Orthodox I have to say that the original christian religion is my religion. Don't come with arguments it is not. In 1054 the church was divided in 2 parts: the catholic and the orthodox. While from the catholic churches evolved a lot of new ideas and thus, new churches, the Orthodoxies didn't change anything in the original concept. That's why you see a lot of abnormalities these days that scare you.

But comparing us to the Nazis... you know something? I can compare all of you who say this as well. You want us to disappear, you consider us wrong....

I'm not going to launch a "counter-attack", I'm just saying that in the real world "one for all and all for one" doesn't apply on everything. So blame the ones that are abnormal, a lot of christian people have a good heart. And having a good heart and being good with others is the ideal we have to achieve in Christianity.

I'm scared too about those who think they can "speak in tongues".

[EDIT] Oh, and btw, atheists can be abnormal too. Best example from my country: Ceausescu.

)) Ceausescu,please don't make me laugh Ceausescu was not the best example of an "abnormal" atheist,I mean Hitler odered nazi soldiers to burn bibles you know. And atheism is not abnormal,nor is intoleration for relligion abnormal for an atheist,like most christians don't tolerate atheist and vice-versa

oh and he edited his comment to say "from my country"

There may be a select few who are nut jobs, but it is blatantly ignorant to put all evangelists into this category.

I was calling the Jesus Campers from the documentary nut-jobs.

Having faith means believing in something without questioning it. I think a healthy dose of skepticism is always a good thing.

For those Christians out there; don't forget another thing you were told from a young age: Listen to doctors.

The link above is broken.

It wasn't hard to figure out where TWHL fucked the link up at,
Not Fail This Time

These Christians demonize Muslims and they're taught to hate everyone except Christians. The intolerance and militancy of the tone made me cringe.

Wrong, the bible teaches us to love everyone and try to explain somebody the importance of God in the Universe.

He said these, not all.

I don't agree with religion. I was raised as a catholic christian and I gave it up when I started to notice it made no sense. The only thing I gathered in all these years is that catholic religion is something made up in the early middle ages to keep the ignorant masses in submission.

What irks me the most is those stupid extremists who believe only them are right and everything else is absolute evil (despite most religions teaching to love others anyway). This is the kind of people that voted GWB twice. It does happen in other religions too, though.

See? I can mix religion and politics in the same paragraph as well. What do I get?

And this is why I tend to stay away from religion or politics topics. They're always the same. Besides, the most important points were brought by others earlier in the thread anyway.

He said these, not all.

Oh I'm sorry. But anyway, normal religious people will always try to be good. Religion is here to teach you to be better, otherwise you'd always put a question in your mind: "why not be evil? so what? I die....good people die too, but there's nothing after death". Religion is for the hope of a better life after death.

Oh I'm sorry. But anyway, normal religious people will always try to be good.

They will most of the time, yes. As will normal non-religious people. Most people are intelligent and healthy enough to have sufficient morals, and these have nothing to do with religions conviction. I know this has been said a hundred times before but it is an important point to make.

A lot of Christians believe that they're being good and doing the right thing by spreading their religion, however. The British Empire thought they were saving the souls of many a poor misguided heaten.

I think the general problem is the conviction. Everyone believes they're right. Christians are sure they're right, so it's not hard to understand why they try to convince others to follow, what they believe, is the right way. Same thing applies to atheists and everyone else. We all believe we're right and we can't understand why others are stupid and can't see it our way. It's intolerant, of course, but it's very understandable.

Religion is for the hope of a better life after death.

An Opiate of the masses, as Marx would have said. A hope that suffering now will be rewarded in another life to take focus away from the real causes of the real pain. Although Marx would also have said that the cause of the real pain is capitalism :p.

While I do mostly agree with satchmo, this thread was already over in the first post and the argument lost for him with his unecessary Nazi comparison.

The first thing I thought of when reading the OP was "Godwin's law". Great minds, Dennis, my dear friend. Then I thought of this.

ChickenFist makes a good point. A lot of religionists tend to make the point that without religion, man's morals would falter. As it is now, there are millions of people completely without belief in the supernatural whose morals are just as good as anyone elses. I think a person's bringing up, no matter if it has anything to do with religion or not, means everything to shaping their morals later on in life.

Question is, how do you get an otherwise moral and decent person to commit atrocious acts of immorality? I think Al-Quaeda instructors and the leaders orchestrating the crusades would agree with the quote "with or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion".

While I might not agree with the absolutist tone of the quote (I think you can get good people to do evil using other tools than religious indoctrination), it does provide an interesting thought concerning religion's role in brainwashing and hate mongering.

Religion by itself isn't necessarily bad, but it can easily be used as a tool to brain-wash people and control their behavior.

That's the dangerous aspect.

I am controlled by many things already, so I decided that I don't need one more thing to control me.

Then I thought of this.

Oh gawd, now I finally understand that gif.

A good atheist is actually more morally sound than a good non-atheist.

A good non-atheist, for example, a Christian, does good in a bid to get into heaven and escape hell.
A good atheist does good regardless. Does good simply because it's good.

If that's really how you want to look at it every single time.

Thread Godwin'ed in the first post, hehe..

My main gripe with religion is that it perpetuates itself by basically brainwashing children at an early age. Religious people should stop and really think about why they believe in God. Is it because they really believe or because their parents taught them to believe?

Of course there are people who chose their faith themselves, without outside influence. I have no problem with them as long as they keep it to themselves and refrain from preaching in my general direction.

As for Jesus being "evil", I think that if he were to return today, he'd probably be shocked to see how Chistianity has evolved. And not in a good way.

A good non-atheist, for example, a Christian, does good in a bid to get into heaven and escape hell.

That's a bad example of a good non-atheist. A good atheist would sacrifice himself to go to hell for somebody he loves to go to heaven, without thinking he will be saved for the massive sacrifice. But of course, that'd be hard for me, because I can't control my mind not to think about "you're doing this for your own good". Meh, sometimes I force myself to be good and force myself to ignore those thoughts. It's all about control.

But let's go nuts
According to some scientists, 3D is not the last dimension. Actually many scientists believe that there is a 4th dimension, 5th dimension... and so on. I watched a documentary some time ago, I don't remember much. But I remember that in 3rd dimension we can modify physical things, like mass,distance etc... but we don't have access to time. We're like in a circle, we need a lot of force to escape that circle(maybe it's the speed of light? or maybe wormholes are the answer, if they don't make you a twisted sandwich). Also, if I were in the 4th dimension, when standing in front of a an object, say... a cube, I'd see not only the faces in front of me. I'd see all of those faces.
Maybe our protecting entity, God, is in the 4th dimension, he can modify time(thus being forever) and can see everything when watching earth.
God forgive me, I'm a little heretic right now, but not only me sees God as a protecting entity.
But maybe there are a lot of things that control our destiny.... where does mass come from? Seriously, what if our brain actually "thinks" with a non-mass energy?

Sorry, I like to discuss these things with you. I find it challenging,funny ,interesting and I find new things

As for Jesus being "evil", I think that if he were to return today, he'd probably be shocked to see how Chistianity has evolved. And not in a good way.

Yes, he'd probably go to the nearest synagogue and pray his heart out.

Religious people should stop and really think about why they believe in God.

Because some force had to create the universe, and what/who caused that force to begin?
If the big bang theory is correct, what caused it?

If the big bang theory is correct, what caused it?

The atheist's proud answer to that question is "we don't know". And saying you don't know is better than accepting the first explanation that comes up, no matter how implausible it is--believing in something because of a lack of evidence makes no sense at all.

Cstriker, to say that the 4th dimension (time) is god is actually probably the most intellegent thing I've ever seen you say. Time is indeed a ruler of all things.

That said, I'm not saying you should start praying to time. The religious definition of "god" is utter bollocks. Time is only god in the sense that it is unbeatable.

I saw that Jesus Camp film awhile back on Youtube. I heard that shortly after the film's release, there was a real big backlash about it and the camp closed down. Good riddance.

Also, on Hitler. I would say that, had he not been obssessed with destroying inferior races, he probably would've been one of the greatest and most respected leaders in history. Its somewhat ironic that his ambitions that lead him to great power became his ultimate downfall. Even when the Russians were heading straight for Berlin, he tried diverting vital resources to have more people sent to camps.

On religion, I don't particularly care what people believe in. As long as you keep it out of public and, above all else, politics, I'm fine with it.

Because some force had to create the universe, and what/who caused that force to begin?
If the big bang theory is correct, what caused it?

I don't see what this has to do with parents teaching their children to believe in god. I hope you're not implying that just because science can't explain what caused the Big Bang there has to be a god, because that's just ignorant. Not knowing something does not automatically mean there is some higher power at work.

A mere 100 years ago we knew little about space, and now we have powerful telescopes that can look further and further away. The answer to what caused the Big Bang may well come in the future, though I suspect that it will just lead to more questions.

I don't see what this has to do with parents teaching their children to believe in god. I hope you're not implying that just because science can't explain what caused the Big Bang there has to be a god, because that's just ignorant. Not knowing something does not automatically mean there is some higher power at work.

Religious people should stop and really think about why they believe in God.

Because some force had to create the universe, and what/who caused that force to begin?
If the big bang theory is correct, what caused it?

Hence I personally believe in God. If science can find out what caused the big bang, fine. But then what caused that? We'll find out the answers in time (assuming we don't all kill each other before that) But unless you can definitvely prove to me, without a doubt, that there isn't a God, I'll still beleive, because there has to be something out there that caused everything to be set in motion, and I'd like to think that it's a benicifent inteligence.

Yes, you'd like to think that, but what do you base it on? Might as well be a Spaghetti monster (flying, perhaps) or the IPU or what have you. There are thousands of religions all claiming they have the answer, and billions of devout followers disagreeing with each other. Again, the atheist's response remains a solemn "we don't know".

Zombie sounds like he's just waiting for evidence. Sounds like an agnostic to me.

This is the kind of people that voted GWB twice.

It is technically inaccurate to say that conservative Christians voted in GWB twice. For one, they do not have even close to enough voter base to shoe-in a candidate. Secondly, they will nearly always vote for the conservative candidate by default (same reason why liberal groups nearly always vote for the liberal candidate by default). That didn't help McCain win last election, or GHB against Clinton or Bob Dole against Clinton.

It was the independent voters who got Bush elected twice. Mad about Bush having two terms? Whine about the independents then.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that religion in other countries is a hell of a lot more extreme in other countries than it is in Australia.

Because seriously, no one gives a shit down here at all. People have their beliefs and nobody tries to force their beliefs on other people.

Maybe because we're not retarded enough to be fundamentalists or creationists. I just really don't understand most of the hatred towards religion.

Zombie sounds like he's just waiting for evidence. Sounds like an agnostic to me.

Agnosticism is taking a stance saying "I choose not to take a stance whether there's a God or not". I believe there's no God, because of a lack of evidence for any Gods.

Don't confuse strong atheism with atheism. Atheism is not, and has never been, being firmly sure there's no God or even slightly sure. It's just the position of disbelief in Gods.

Hence I personally believe in God. If science can find out what caused the big bang, fine. But then what caused that? We'll find out the answers in time (assuming we don't all kill each other before that) But unless you can definitvely prove to me, without a doubt, that there isn't a God, I'll still beleive, because there has to be something out there that caused everything to be set in motion, and I'd like to think that it's a benicifent inteligence.

I'm not here to convince you there's no god, I don't care what you believe in as long as you keep it to yourself and don't force your beliefs down someone elses throat.

I'm not here to convince you there's no god, I don't care what you believe in as long as you keep it to yourself and don't force your beliefs down someone elses throat.

Agreed. I know I have my beliefs and I keep them to myself.

The only religion I can't stand is Scientology, those idiots don't want me to take my medicine.

Since when was Scientology a religion?

Well, I guess that depends on where you live but in Sweden it has been an official religion for some time.

It's a recognized religion in the States, as well.

Hell, it's tax exempt, which is pretty outrageous.

If I see and experience God myself, I would believe it.

Since I haven't and I have never seen anything that would convince me otherwise, I don't believe God exists.

Again, there's nothing wrong with religion, except that it's easily abused.

Since I am not religious, I am less inclined to abuse others and less likely to be abused.