Anyone else mad at Source mapping? Created 18 years ago2006-03-23 11:56:24 UTC by Xyos212

I love source mapping, but did you ever think its more inviting for noobs to make maps than HL1? I mean it lets you run the map when there are leaks and problems, you dont even need to set the tools configurations (That what I thought was the most frustrating) and more people release killbox than ever before! The configuration of Hammer was like a shield that screened out idiots from making crappy maps. Now simply hit refresh game config and there you go. You can always see a good mapper from a noob mapper, but it seems more and more crap maps get out there in the internet like cs_assault old. This map is so bad! (no draw was NOT used, proportion is wrong, 5 story building as tall as a player!) compared to CS_xmas which is a godly map that NOONe EVEN HEARD OF! Ive also been seeing peoples maps with brushwork pulled out of other maps! People ask how to decompile claiming to learn, but just STEAL! Im sorry for this looong rant, but im just sick of shit mappers getting their little maps played more than deserving ones! RANT! RANT!!!!!

Thats nice...

Stop your whining, this thread isn't going to help things.

Killboxes are fun, even if they look like crap.
People like these maps, face the facts.

Also, those by your standerds 'crap' maps are probaly made by starting mappers. We all started once and I bet you made the same mistakes when you first started to map. They mostly have a clan server were the map gets played, then someone likes it and you will find the map on other server in notime.

Also, that cs_xmas map is a xmas map and it was a community map by interlopers, a half-life 2 mapping site. It probaly was to complicated for the regular CS noob, that's why it isn't played. Besides, the best change of having your map played in CS is by making a fy/aim map. They get tried out, even the good looking ones. De_ and Cs_ maps have less chance of getting populair considering the regular CS noob plays 24/7 dust.

The more experted mappers here make the same mistake, they judge on looks and mostly forget the gameplay factor. People that don't map, the players, would choose gameplay above looks anyday. If the map looks nice, then that's only nice, for most players, looks are secundair. The many people playing killboxes prove it.

The fact that good-looking maps get played less is a sad fact, but it just can't be helped. In other words, STFU!

Well, I think your wrong FresheD. Those maps are made by noobs yes, but the difference is they DONT pursue mapping to a further extent. They make many crappy maps and dont care. CS_xmas was mapped by one person, materials by another, and small models by another. The brushwork was of one person. Gameplay is the easiest part of a map. Making it look real is the hard part. Gameplay should be considered first, then augmented by the graphics. Im sorry dont agree with my opinion? STFU then!

Pfft, idiot.

Don't you get it?

A mappers creates a map to get the map played and liked by the players. A mapper's duty is to make a map fun and look good.
The regular CS players don't care about looks, they are secundair.
They just wanna play fast hardcore gameplay. That's why all these crappy looking FY maps are populair.

In the end, a map is good when the players like it, once again, for the players gameplay is nr.1, then don't really care about looks.

Creating good gameplay really isn't that easy as you think it is btw..

Who cares? There's nothing you can do about it. Just make your maps and don't give a shite about anyone else. CS players will always accept the unacceptable, they don't have a clue what mapping standards should be all about.

Starting these threads aren't going to help at all.

Indeed, Xyos, it's time for you to face the facts and quit your whining.

Nuff' Said.

Whining about this isn't going to help. Try advertising your maps where the players are instead, to turn the tide (or at least to try to ;)).

Good looking maps aren't necessarily bad playing ones. What I think is a usualy path for a mapper is that he's starting with killbox-like things. In their simple enthousiasm they spread these all across and hence they get known.
If a mapper continues and gets in touch with other mappers, one of the first things that often start to improve is looks. These mappers compete with looks amongst each other. They 'advertise' less amongst players, so these maps naturally get a lot less publicity.
Then, and that may take some years, a mapper can turn into a level-designer, thinking out the map, playtesting into perfection, balancing the looks versus other things and so on.

Needless to say, there's few level-designers compared to mappers. If they would advertise their maps in player communities I'm sure these gems could get known not only inside the mapping communities, but far outside. I'm sure de_dust would never have been so popular if it wasn't with the rising popularity of Counter-Strike but kept in the confined space of a mapping community.
About this last group, there's a small part of them that become professionals and their maps are getting played...

Besides... isn't mapping and level-design just all about the fun, not the name and fame?

EDIT: Also, I don't think this is something caused by Source. The situation hasn't changed much really since Source, methinks.

I couldn't agree more with you, ow wise captain P

I made a killBOWL once just to be spiteful, it was a giant hollow half-sphere full of zombies, fire and lots of death. I dont think anyone actually played it because it was too complicated not being a box with every nme and weapon on a table.

I think he's right.
Source mapping makes noobs stand in the spotlight while the hardworking pwnages are so rare comparing to the noobs, they dissapare behind the scene

haha thats what you guys get for working hard! Next time learn from all the idiots, decompile a map and call it yours, or make two hollowed blocks connected by two corridors filled with spawn points.
[/end sarcasm]

Edit:

And don't forget da leaks! Use only three dust textures too.

I think the Source configuration is better. Now I dont have to worry about where VIS.exe and the others are. Since I know these programs, I dont mind if they are being kept in the dark, so all I have to do is concentrate in mapping.
About noob maps, I cant say anything because I neither download or play them at all. It's rather easy to stay away from them If you want to.
In the looks vs. fun issue, I personally would stay away from a map that has horrible looks even if the gameplay is fun. As a matter of fact, playing in a good looking arena is a part of that fun for me. I will never love a map that was not loved by the author.

This isnt about me, its about Really good maps going unnoticed and not being played. Yes good advertisement does matter I agree with that. Killboxes are NOT gameplay. Any idiot can think and make that in 2 seconds. Putting thought into a map and detail is important too. cs_assault source isnt underplayed. Its same gameplay, if not better. Its not about fame, its about people appreciating a good map, not a cube with a brick texture all over it! LOOKS matter when buying a game! After the initial purchase, then they will play the fun custom crappy maps. People dont see a game on the shelf with people fighting in a killbox and buy it. Looks and detail is what seperates the shit mappers from the experienced ones. You can rant and rant about gameplay, but its the looks that draws the person into the map in the first place!

EDIT: I think I might go back to HL1 mapping. Havnt mapped for it in a while, and its a good engine Less noobs too

Also, I cant understand why any of you disagree with me. All of you make excellent detailed maps, but they arnt played online. Dont you feel angry your quality work gets overshadowed by the "killbox" maps out there?

I dont know why you would choose an editor based on how many noobs use it to make maps. The choice should be based on things like "which editor will allow me to use my imagination?" or "In which game will my map be more succesful?"
As for killbox maps being played online instead of mine... Their loss. I had fun making them, and I know (mostly thanks to this site) that some people do appreciate them and are inspired to make better maps. That's a good enough reward for me.
I would be angry if a n00b killbox map won a competition (with money involved) instead of a good map by me. But that's not the case... so no harm done.

xyos if you are so worried about art being stifled by the majority then dont ever become a member of ytmnd, its depressing

Art? YTMND?

ytmnd. I love those. lol

Yes, I guess your right Kasperg. I really shouldnt choose game engines by influence of noobs

some of them are real works of art 7th, if you appreciate proper pixel art as much as me anyway

Linkmeh?

I think he's right.
Source mapping makes noobs stand in the spotlight while the hardworking pwnages are so rare comparing to the noobs, they dissapare behind the scene

Not at all. If you frequent a site like CSM2, maybe this is true. Otherwise, not really.

I love source mapping, but did you ever think its more inviting for noobs to make maps than HL1? I mean it lets you run the map when there are leaks and problems, you dont even need to set the tools configurations (That what I thought was the most frustrating) and more people release killbox than ever before! The configuration of Hammer was like a shield that screened out idiots from making crappy maps. Now simply hit refresh game config and there you go. You can always see a good mapper from a noob mapper, but it seems more and more crap maps get out there in the internet like cs_assault old. This map is so bad! (no draw was NOT used, proportion is wrong, 5 story building as tall as a player!) compared to CS_xmas which is a godly map that NOONe EVEN HEARD OF! Ive also been seeing peoples maps with brushwork pulled out of other maps! People ask how to decompile claiming to learn, but just STEAL! Im sorry for this looong rant, but im just sick of shit mappers getting their little maps played more than deserving ones! RANT! RANT!!!!!

Mappers' fault, then, if they really care about decompilers. Most people just ignore it or ask the member to remove it, that or expose the person responsible (ie, Nexus from the NS forums a while ago) - If you're concerned about it add the no_decomp field to any entity or use a tools/locked texture.

Though I do want my maps to play fun, I don't do it to get my map into the top 10 maps of all time. The creation and playtests are a lot of fun for me and the learning process, the challenges encountered while designing and creating a level... that's what I like.

Not that it would hurt to see my maps getting played, but I'll have to do some more work after the release to see that happening methinks.

Source is great...Have you seen the sort of maps like Rabid make with it?
HL1 is legendary but Source just plain rocks with the size and graphics.

Hmm, no_decomp and locked texture? What exactly do these things do (in a technical way)?

The are used by vmex.

Vmex looks through the bsp and as soon as it finds an entity with the no-decomp key or the locked texture, it will stop, and fail the decompile.