History Repeating Itself
Posted 6 years ago2018-06-20 09:52:48 UTC
Neither of these pictures was originally mine, but I juxtapose them to warn everyone of the similarities. History is repeating itself.
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Yeah, there are a lot of bad things happening. Children are being separated from their parents when they've been arrested and we don't know where to put them.
But are we really at Holocaust levels yet? Is gathering people who broke the law to enter a country and putting them back into their homeland anywhere near the equivalent of systematically selecting people of a certain ethnicity, whether citizen or not, and putting them in death camps where they're starved and killed.
At time of posting, an hour ago the president signed an executive order to stop separating children from their parents. Hopefully this is a big step in resolving this terrible situation.
They're not to the point of forcing labor or executing them yet, but those "facilities" definitely fit the definition of concentration camps.
Also the fact that people are being arrested for entering the US as asylum seekers, an act that is not illegal, even when they cross the border illegally (applying for asylum, IIRC, also cancels out the misdemeanor crime of illegal entry if done within 2 weeks. And even if that's not done in the legal timeframe, illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and a civil infraction not a felony and criminal infraction, and thus doesn't warrant imprisonment, especially without the due process which is the basis of your entire legal system)
The new executive order doesn't solve anything. Children will still be imprisoned in subpar "holding facilities", though alongside their parents this time. My prediction is that these same facilities will still be used but become more crowded as the parents are shipped in.
You Americans need to all contact your representatives and make it painfully clear that the voting public will not tolerate this shit. Unless your representative is Jeff "Concentration Camps for Kids" Sessions, in which case you need to call for him to immediately step down because clear breaches of the constitution aside the fact that he owns investments in the company that's operating these hellholes is a clear conflict of interest. Sessions is directly profiting from putting children in cages.
While you're at it give them an earful for violating US Law, International Law, and Cuban law for committing war crimes in Guantanamo as well.
Also for the Aussies, please do the same for your own representatives, your government has been doing it for longer.
At first, Hitler marginalized them by dehumanizing them, calling them "murderers and rapists". Then he labeled the group as the cause of all of Germany's troubles.
Then he rounded them up and targeted them for unequal treatment.
Trump has done all these so far.
Who knows what's next? No one saw it coming for Hitler either.
Let's not kid ourselves and be complacent.
The reason Trump calls people "murderers and rapists" is because when an immigrant is undocumented, some of them literally could be and we would have no way in knowing. That's kind of the point of a documented immigration system, to keep these kinds of people out of the country, as criminals may be disproportionately more likely to want to leave their homeland to evade the police. If we don't have a solid system to keep track of these people and make sure we know who they are before we let them into the country, then a lot of terrible things can pass through the border.
I'm not seeing the problem with the comparison, Dimbark.
Tell me when we start systematically killing people based on their race, or when we start detaining documented legal immigrants and citizens.
At least we don't have gag orders or limitations on speech like in your country, and least the rule of law here doesn't bow to anyone because of their race.
The people entering your country are doing so because they're fleeing the criminals. They are refugees. The reason they're entering your country illegally (and as I've said applying for asylum cancels out that misdemeanor, legally speaking) is because your orange "god-king" closed the ports of entry, meaning they cannot enter the country legally via the ground. And refugees generally can't afford a plane ticket because the people they're running from took or destroyed everything they have.
These people just want a new life safe from tyranny and oppression. Because I know you don't give a shit about that, let me put it in terms you might - First generation immigrants are willing to work hard to earn their keep and they'll gladly do the jobs most americans would sneer at because it means they at least have a chance to start over. Immigrants are one of the best sources of economic stimulus. Those of them that haven't had the chance to get a college education will pick your crops, tend your storefronts, and clean your toilets to keep things running smoothly. Those of them that have had the opportunity to be educated will bring in fresh ideas and expertise to create new ventures and technology.
Instead your government is spending more money than I pay a month in rent, per person, daily, to lock them away. This doesn't help them, it doesn't help you, and it wastes an inordinate amount of your taxpayer money that could be spent doing something useful like fixing your crumbling infrastructure or funding a national healthcare plan. If this decision was really about "America First" the Trump administration would be welcoming these people with open arms. It's not about helping America. It's about getting rid of the "filthy brown people".
The people entering your country are doing so because they're fleeing the criminals. They are refugees.
So the US is not only the world police, but also the world refuge? The corrupt Mexican government has been actively trying to deport their lower class to the United States. Why? Because if there is no lower class, there's no revolution, which is the only thing that can fix Mexico. Mexico doesn't deserve to be in the state it's in right now, especially with how rich it is in resources. If the good people leave the country, since that's an alternative they have to forming a revolution and overthrowing the blatantly corrupt government, then things aren't going to change for the better. The country is going to get progressively worse, and the demand for migration to the US is going to escalate.
We cannot take this many immigrants, and breaking the law to migrate will only hurt legal immigrants. The only people who can make Mexico great again are its people.
The reason they're entering your country illegally (and as I've said applying for asylum cancels out that misdemeanor, legally speaking) is because your orange "god-king" closed the ports of entry, meaning they cannot enter the country legally via the ground.
I agree with you on this. This is what I don't like about Trump and I hope he fixes it. Immigration should be a smoother process, and we need to get rid of the quota systems that are in place because the demand is very excessive. But, if you are a citizen of any country, you are not entitled to entry of any other country without their express permission.
/ (and as I've said applying for asylum cancels out that misdemeanor, legally speaking)/
Yeah, but what do we do when an excessive amount of them apply for asylum, and turn out to not be eligible as refugees?
because your orange "god-king"
imagine judging people by the color of their skin
These people just want a new life safe from tyranny and oppression.
Yeah, and I'm supportive of these immigrants and the points you make further on. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, and we need a functioning system that is capable of bending to the demand for entry. Nobody disagrees with this. What people do disagree with is letting people in when we don't know who they are.
Instead your government is spending more money than I pay a month in rent, per person, daily, to lock them away. This doesn't help them, it doesn't help you, and it wastes an inordinate amount of your taxpayer money that could be spent doing something useful like fixing your crumbling infrastructure or funding a national healthcare plan.
Well, now we've got Domino's pizza paving our roads. Hopefully they'll start paying for our healthcare next, and then the private Dominos pizza police force can make sure my pizza is protected. In all seriousness, I think the government should stick to enforcing the law and leave the free markets to solve these issues. I've been reading up on Rothbard, if you couldn't tell btw
If this decision was really about "America First" the Trump administration would be welcoming these people with open arms. It's not about helping America. It's about getting rid of the "filthy brown people".
I think at the end of the day, this comes to values. I value the people of my country, and I think the people of any country should value their people as well. Nationalism and competition between nations has created a lot of progress in our world socially and economically. As per this ideology, I think it's in America's best interest to have a better filtering system for legal immigration to ensure the best for our people and economy. And I think it's in Mexico's best interest to have an undivided lower class that can overthrow their current system and replace it.
I hope I've done a better job at spelling out some of my points, and I wanna hear your refutations.
I've tried to explain this to you before in other conversations but ethnicity doesn't cause a predisposition to crime. This statistic says less about immigrants and more about racial profiling and lack of opportunities for legal advancement in the areas where hispanic people end up gathering. (usually in poorer areas of large cities, which in turn is due to years of racial bias.) I'd also be curious to know how many of those prison sentences are due to the ban on cannabis. I would imagine quite a few, which would of course mean that cannabis prohibition is working as intended.
So the US is not only the world police, but also the world refuge?
You wanted to be the first one, and it's only fair to assume that after marketing yourself as the "land of opportunity" and "greatest country on earth" people would want to live there. As for your points on Mexico, I can only say that if a revolution hasn't happened yet, it's probably not going to. And also please don't say the phrase "Make Mexico Great Again" as that's very tone-deaf in light of the past couple of years.
Yeah, but what do we do when an excessive amount of them apply for asylum, and turn out to not be eligible as refugees?
I don't know, but putting them in prison for wanting a better life is not a solution and sending them back to be slaughtered by the people they were fleeing sounds like an even worse option.
imagine judging people by the color of their skin
Imagine trying to equate a crack about a bad spray-on tan to actual racism while also being a person who has on multiple occasions tried to argue to me that "ethnic minorities are more likely to commit crime because they're ethnic minorities" including in this very thread.
In all seriousness, I think the government should stick to enforcing the law and leave the free markets to solve these issues.
You think an unregulated "free market" should be doing one of the main responsibilities of a government? Really? And if you think roads, healthcare, power generation and education should all be left to for-profit entities, why are you not going all the way and saying we should have private police forces and fire departments? Maybe because you don't think that would end up being good for people as a whole?
I think at the end of the day, this comes to values. I value the people of my country, and I think the people of any country should value their people as well.
I don't think anyone is arguing that, but valuing your own people doesn't have to come at the expense of the value of others, especially when those people are trying to become one with you. This is something Trump doesn't seem to understand either - It's not a zero-sum game. Everyone can win if you just allow it.
Nationalism and competition between nations has created a lot of progress in our world socially and economically.
Competition between nations, sure. In peacetime it can cause massive booms and I have to admit - however many times we came close to destroying each other, the NATO/USSR cold war worked miracles for technology, as did the world wars, but I also have to say I'm not certain the cost, both actual in the latter examples and potential in the former one, were worth that acceleration. We'd still have the transistor today if they hadn't firebombed Tokyo and nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we had the radio before Gavrilo Princip fired the bullet that hit 41 million.
Nationalism on the other hand? You're going to have to provide some concrete proof of that ever making anything other than discrimination, war, and genocide. "My country is better than yours and everyone who isn't one of us can suck it and die" isn't very constructive, and I'm glad that even during the height of the cold war we were able to find some places to find common ground and cooperate with the Soviets, like the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project.
I've tried to explain this to you before in other conversations but ethnicity doesn't cause a predisposition to crime.
But different ethnic groups do behave differently and there is data beyond arrest records that represents this. It's not because of their ethnicity, but it exists. To say that certain ethnicity have certain rates when it comes to committing crimes is merely observational.
sending them back to be slaughtered by the people they were fleeing sounds like an even worse option.
What about the ones who aren't being slaughtered? The economic migrants and such? How do we tell the difference between them? How do we tell which ones are and aren't criminals? The main point I've been trying to make is that organizing migration without documentation is a major issue and the solution needs to involve some kind of system to keep track of documented immigration.
As for your points on Mexico, I can only say that if a revolution hasn't happened yet, it's probably not going to. And also please don't say the phrase "Make Mexico Great Again" as that's very tone-deaf in light of the past couple of years.
The Mexican government is actively keeping it from happening. I'm convinced a revolution would be brewing if the lower classes weren't leaving in strides. Also, what's wrong with saying "Make Mexico Great Again?" Are we supposed to just sit back and celebrate Mexico becoming a worse and worse place until the entire country hollows itself out?
why are you not going all the way and saying we should have private police forces and fire departments?
I did say Pizza Defense Force, didn't I?
I could be Rothbard and try to say that we should privatize police and fire departments, but I think police and fire departments are legitimate because they don't entitle you to anything except the things you already have.
Nationalism on the other hand? You're going to have to provide some concrete proof of that ever making anything other than discrimination, war, and genocide.
I think a general pride in your homeland and culture is important. If you respect your culture and want it to prosper, you should seek to protect it. If you want to prove your value of your culture and ideas, you do incredibly things to set an example for the world stage. I don't think race should play a role in nationalism, it's when you enter racial nationalism and ethnic superiority/inferiority that you've entered incredibly dangerous territory.
Oh shut up, you know I don't support Britain's government. Scottish independence, yo.
"Tell me when we start systematically killing people based on their race, or when we start detaining documented legal immigrants and citizens."
See: Germany 1933.
Everything has a progression. Just because it's not at its most extreme yet doesn't mean we shouldn't kick the fuck off when it's heading in that direction.
Count Dankula was Scottish. Court sentenced him a fine of £800 for his nazi pug video.
Everything has a progression. Just because it's not at its most extreme yet doesn't mean we shouldn't kick the fuck off when it's heading in that direction.
Come on Arch, you know this is a slippery slope fallacy. When the administration becomes genuinely extremist, I'll be right along with you guys with the molotov cocktails. Hell, a revolution'd probably be easy with how many guns we've got around here.
Are you just reiterating my point?
"When the administration becomes genuinely extremist, I'll be right along with you guys with the molotov cocktails."
You are really underestimating the lasting impact people seen to be in power have on a much larger scale. Kids growing up thinking the way Trump behaves is acceptable. Grab em by the pussy mentality seen as the norm. Treating people differently based on race seen as the norm. It's a collective consciousness thing and it's absolutely how things eventually get brought to extremes. Look at the white power marches that took place when he was elected. Normalisation of that sort of mentality cannot be allowed to happen.
I dunno man. This past year I've spent alot of time with right-leaning groups on my campus, and there's never really been any racially charged or sexist sentiments. Hell, three of the leaders of TPUSA chapters were women, and out of my chapter at least two of them were LGBT and of multiple races. Half of the people I know who voted for Trump don't like the guy and think he's outrageous, but like him better than the opposition.
Trump's kinda the most hated person on the planet now, so it's nowhere near being the collective conscious. Even his own supporters are upset when he flip flops on issues like gun control. As for the white power marches, the alt-right thought Trump's election would be their big chance to break out, but they barely mustered a few hundred people for their rally that pretty much everyone has demonized. The only thing that "normalizes" these things is the media, who're getting selectively outraged about whatever will further their agenda.
Also, women will only let you grab them by the pussy straight up if you're a billionaire. Note his words, "they'll let you do it." Until I see some evidence that women aren't sexually available to billionaires, I'll have to take his word for it.
At what point do you draw the line? When it's your family? Because it clearly doesn't matter because these aren't American children or families, these are people who are overflowing your country (fundamentally incorrect), who are defined by being either criminals or not, deliberately breaking the law and it's the parents fault that they're separated from their kids, they broke the law - what else are we meant to put them? Ok, trump may calm down a bit but it's his rabid racist fanbase and cronies like Devin Nines and Cohen who will push for things that he can't.
This is LITERALLY how the nazi regime started. There is no hyperbole or exaggeration anymore. It's reality.
What do you mean WHEN the administration become extremist? The administration ARE extremist. They're already there, I'm sorry. Calling immigrants inhuman, rapists and murders. Defending their separation because they aren't American children. Trump signing an order due to public pressure rather than it maybe being an extremely fucked up thing to do ( oh and the order means fuck all, they're not going to be able to reunite families and the indefinite detention will continue). Trump and his rich white old men openly dislike homosexuals, are openly sexist, have ACTIVELY DEFENDED NEO NAZIS- is it just when they actually start murdering people that you'll say "oh wait maybe it's too far"?
I know you've got questionable views because you stood outside a university and wore a diaper because... Something? But this? Enabling this sort of behaviour? What the fuck man
Genuinely, I don't see what's so controversial about my stance. I've agreed that the legal immigration process needs to be reformed so we can meet demand. We need to know who these people are before we let them into the country.
But until the immigration process is reformed, nobody is entitled to enter the country without following our rules.
Calling immigrants inhuman, rapists and murders.
Nobody calls immigrants inhuman, rapists and murderers. ILLEGAL immigrants on the other hand, they very well could be because we don't know who we're letting into the country.
Defending their separation because they aren't American children.
American children get separated from their parents all the time. When a parent commits a crime and goes to jail, what do you think we just let the child piss off in the streets or something?
Trump signing an order due to public pressure rather than it maybe being an extremely fucked up thing to do
Another big problem I have with Trump, he does cave to public pressure often. I don't think there's a single person on the planet Trump hasn't pissed off with some of his ideas before.
Trump and his rich white old men openly dislike homosexuals
Maybe Pence does, but Trump himself openly supports gay marriage. Even if you think it's just for show, as long as he isn't actively creating policies that target the LGBT community then I don't see the issue.
are openly sexist
Is this another 'grab 'em by the pussy' thing or have I missed something? Honestly, gimme a citation.
have ACTIVELY DEFENDED NEO NAZIS
People like to take Trump's "there are some very fine people there" comment and bend it all sorts of ways. The thing is, there were a percentage of people there for the "Unite the Right" event who didn't come expecting a majority of neonazis. The neonazis used underhanded marketing tactics to increase their numbers, and there were some very fine people among them.
/ is it just when they actually start murdering people that you'll say "oh wait maybe it's too far"?/
No, they've gone too far when they start putting people in jails when they haven't even committed a crime, or when the punishment for said crime becomes unfair or unusually cruel. The system for arresting illegal immigrants and deporting them is fine, but the system for accepting legal immigrants isn't yet.
I know you've got questionable views because you stood outside a university and wore a diaper because...
because FREEDOM!
Dim, I know you're right wing
Since when? I'm a liberal my man, just not a progressive.
It's so silly that people can actually be arguing the same point at one another simply because they aren't listening to the other person/people but are simply waiting their turn to say an already prepared statement/comeback/whatever, and so long as the other person keeps responding they feel the need to revalidate their opinion.
If people feel so strongly about something, why waste the effort to argue about it on an online forum? There certainly must be something else that would be more productive towards making meaningful change on the matter.
Get a fucking grip.
And that's to say nothing of ICE officers illegally entering private residences and businesses without warrants to detain more people, something that is blatantly illegal, the government is also doing nothing about, and is very reminiscent of how the Gestapo operated during the Nazi regime.
You have to look at the warning signs. If you wait until people are being executed en masse it's already too late.
These children are not being shaved bald and their hair used for mattress stuffing. They are not being permanently tattooed with identification numbers. They are not being fed rations of rancid bread made from sawdust. They are not being worked to death. Their corpses are not being desecrated to harvest gold teeth. This is a Wal-Mart, not fucking Auschwitz.
These children are sitting in an air conditioned building with medical care, three hot meals a day, and a room full of PlayStation 4s. Many of our own citizens don't have it that good. There is zero indication that illegals will ever be put in concentration camps so drop the fucking hysterics and stop minimizing the Holocaust.
Your ridiculous histrionics are enabling a far more serious problem that you refuse to recognize as long as it's easier to sneak in illegally than go through the proper channels, there will be a thriving human trafficking industry on our southern border.
Did you know that eighty percent of women who immigrate illegally are raped at some point during the journey? How does it feel to know that the hysterical chicken little screeching that you and others like you throw everywhere undermines efforts to end child slavery and mass rape?
The border must be secured, because this modern-day slave trade must end. If you want to stay on the wrong side of history, that's fine, but get the fuck out of the way of those of us who want to save lives and end suffering.
Victor, this is called a discussion. The 'fucking hysterics' are coming from you and you alone.
Nobody here is arguing about whether the kids have PS4s or air con or whatever. Even if they were in the most luxurious facilities the states had to offer, that doesn't negate that they are separating children from their families, inducing PTSD levels of stress in the families, holding their children hostage unless they sign deportation orders, and even forcing toddlers to appear in court on their lonesome.
There's more going on in these detention facilities than meets the eye, for definite. Senators are only allowed access to them two weeks after requesting it, and whistleblowers have actively been stopped by the DHS Something is going on that is worse than air con and PS4s. Surelyto see why this is far from the life of luxury you seem to be saying these people are having?
I see absolutely no reason why having this ridiculous protocol remotely helps the numbers you state of immigrants encountering some form of sexual abuse or assault - surely if anything implies the current methods do not work and need to be improved in a less hitlerish way?
By the time we all become complacent and the slippery slope does take us there, it would be too late.
Talk to any German who lived in Germany in that era, and even though they were not the one pulling the switch to the gas chambers, they were complicit in what was happening.
I refuse to be complicit.
It’s begun.
The Scots know better.