Forum posts

@ Skals: I came here, posted in this thread and THEN uploaded the map.
What you say "was going to happen" did before I actually showed up, if you take a good look.

Contrary to what seemed to be popular belief here 3 years ago, I listen to any and all advice that is given as such, and out of that I make conclusions on what I should change about my maps.
In the case of TC2, Playbus and I had a debate on several gameplay concepts. If you leave feedback, we'll have a better idea of whether A or B (or even C!) was the right thing to do for each case.
It's very instructive to see that some elements we had some doubts about are actually the ones causing the biggest problems!

There hasn't been much TWHL love for me lately, but fine.

(At least there seems to be some progress to TWHL and threads with 'discussions' taking place aren't closed rightaway while those with 'Truckloads of Fail' are kept open...)

I'll post TC2 if I'm able.

How stupid do you think people are?

what fun is it playing an awful kasperg mod if he isn't around to have a cry about legitimate criticisms?

Where was my wry comment before that?

Stop embarrassing yourself.

We did release a 1.1 version of The Citizen with A LOT of corrections that came out of the TWHL forums. Why do some people still say we couldn't take or accept feedback? All lies.
To name an example off the back of my head, the sniper in the shop map aka "For Your Convenience", now kills a guy before he has a chance to kill you, as Strider suggested here.
Like that one, countless examples. A sign warning about leeches in the sewers, more brightness in the room with the 5-switch puzzles etc.

I insist there was never a problem with criticism, just with what wasn't voiced like it and what even became personal attacks. Then came the MotM thread, Strider making my shouts disspear etc. We all know the story.

I don't know how many times Trapt has said he didn't enjoy our mod (again, I couldn't care less) but everytime he mentions it he has to add some witty comment that shows he really can't let go.
Kasperg participating in a thread about Kasperg's work can be considered within norms. Trapt appearing, saying he doesn't care/doesn't like/doesn't enjoy/knows a lot/ is also the norm for this type of thread. But hey, the man doesn't have an issue with me or what I do.
Not at all.

@Penguinboy: I'm sorry, but this is something I really wanted everyone to see. And you're probably seeing it too.
And by the way:

but we are also harsher critics because we know how it is done

Trust me, not everyone does. Until you have 16 maps in your hands and want to release them as unified structure, you can't possibly have an idea of how this goes. If I spent half a year making a map ala dm_venetia (RIP), of course the level of polish could be through the roof. But one gets tired, wants to release... Really, you need to undertake the task of creating a big mod in order to understand why some things are left the way they are, some maps are more overlooked and less tested etc.

It's never too late. You are really not punishing us by not playing, really. That's something some of your coleagues here really think.

Btw, we did manage to filter out those quirky additions from Playbus (even though I did enjoy them) from TC2 and because of it, it feels more serious than the original and less "customized". I know some people hated those extra touches (posters, rebels playing pranks, hidden easter eggs etc) but others did like them.

Forgive me Penguinboy...

Does almost 20 years of video gaming not qualify me as someone who knows what they're talking about? This has nothing to do with arrogance.

No more than those that DID enjoy the mod and had 30 years of video gaming. I still don't see your point...And I still don't care that you didn't enjoy it. You seem to talk about it and its authors as much as you can, which does suspiciously relate to the following quoted statement...

I MUST MAKE THEM FALL BECAUSE I DIDN'T ENJOY THEIR MOD!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter how much sarcasm you try to add, it does happen and it'd be something natural, nothing to be ashamed of.
But I insist, that's how you came across. I'm not saying you actually thought that. But meh, who knows.

You're not the only one here who has contributed to a popular mod.

I'm sorry. I have never downloaded Dystopia (if that's the mod you contributed to) because it has never interested me at all...If the themes and style themselves fail to make me download it, then you haven't done your job of adding me to your target demographic.
At least we got YOU to download and play The Citizen back in 2007... I guess we cheated you with the familiar HL2 imagery, huh?

@Blitzkrieg
See? I thought "it" represented the previous phrase and not "the mod". I think It's actually the more common use for "whether we like it or not".
Example: I'm going to see the Louvre Museum, whether you like it or not.
"It" would be "the fact that I'm going to see the Louvre", not the museum itself.
Just a simple misunderstanding.

@trapt

criticism from people who know what they're talking about

Oh yes, and I'm the arrogant one...
And please, quote one past hysterical response from me. You might find something, but so far all you do is hide behind the idea that I replied hysterically. I coul do the same and say all you ever did in your feedback was cry.

@Penguinboy
You're being quite reasonable and will try to do the same.
The problem with certain criticism (I'm rememebering yours in particular) was that it came out as a long monotonous complaint instead of any attempt at real useful feedback. You need to acknowledge this because the whole "problem" originates there. You can probably search around for your numerous "It's impossible!" statements about stuff that Playbus then explained was perfectly possible. He was a bit harsh answering you back then, but I'm sure both of us were still catching our breath after the release. That's just an example.

You've been trying to paint the picture that we couldn't take feedback when we had been doing so for 3 years prior to TC1 and have been doing so for 3 more years after TC1. Something about the story of "Evil Arrogant Kasperg" doesn't make much sense.
You also have access to all of my mapvault comments and comments on other people's WIP threads. Please show me some where I'm being condescendent, arrogant, showing a patronizing attitude and NOT defending my work in the process. I think my attitude has always been correct and respectful and helpful toward other people's work.
I know it's not the perfect example, but still: If you insult my mother and I punch you, does that give you the right to say I punch people for a living? It really isn't that different.

Why aren't you getting criticism anywhere else? Maybe they have lower expectations. Maybe ours are too high

Doesn't that sound as arrogant as anything I might have ever said?
The other places (Moddb and Planet Phillip as main examples) are full of Half-life players. If they enjoy playing what I enjoy mapping, then I've completed my task. Have fun while mapping and having people enjoy my maps.
It doesn't matter how far off from Valve's Standards I get or how many tweaks you think can be made to a map. I put the limit on how much I time I want to invest in each thing, and that's the reason why I have been able to make more than 50 multiplayer maps and more than 40 singleplayer maps. You might hate them all, but doesn't mean I didn't have a great time making them and a lot of people had fun playing them. You can't take that away from any of us and are somehow resentful for it. As in: Crap! I can make much more polished and better-lit maps than these guys, I understand Valve's gameflow ideas better than they do (Probably true) but somehow it's THEM who have released a mod that some (or quite a lot of, actually) of people are enjoying even with its flaws. If I can't reach them, I must make them fall somehow.
That's how it sounded back then, I'm sorry to say.

I was going to post TC2 here like I did with Random Quest (not that many people cared about that mod here) and I saw Huntey had made a post about it. Of course, I'd think twice before adding it now lest I contaminate Trapt's TWHL front page with some awful excuse for a mod.

And once again, I admit you're being reasonable. I just wanted to express my opinions (if I can, because sometimes it seems I'm excluded from that) now that you seem much more intent on understanding, for which I can only say thank you.

I was actually asking about the "whether we like it or not phrase"!

That's why I quoted it. You see? Your seem predisposed to thinking I was being negative...

No, I'm just toying with you and making your bitterness surface again in every single post where you mention me or have mentioned me over these past years.
Keep doing it, please. It just confirms what I wrote above.

And ask yourself again, why this isn't happening in any other place where my mods are being discussed. The maps are all the same, their flaws and virtues are all the same, the mappers answering to feedback are the same...

Do the math!

what fun is it playing an awful kasperg mod if he isn't around to have a cry about legitimate criticisms?

Well, we already have our mod hosted on a few sites where kids like you in particular can't offer the kind of feedback that, although sometimes accurate and well founded, came across as being nothing but a try of having a go at Playbus or me on a personal level. The reasons you had to take that kind of approach for feedback were very obvious, but I won't describe them lest the size of my head grows bigger

it also had some pretty damn good fuckin mapping whether we like it or not.

And why wouldn't you like it? This is what I mean about the feeling of resentment. It shows I wasn't making anything up. I'm happy whenever someone makes a map or mod I can enjoy. Doesn't matter who it is.

Huntey's review adresses some important points about pacing and gameplay which we are sure to adress for the final release. Some of those issues and different ones have showed up in comments and we've taken note, discussed some of them etc. No ego fights anywhere. No insults, no-one crying foul, absolutely no personal issues at all... Do the math and find out where the real ego problem was!
And play the mod too. There are 9 maps so far and you might find at least something you like among all of it, even if more work is clearly needed.

Habboi, maybe I don't have to prove anything, but I do have to explain some things. In their own twisted way, these individuals spread the lies that I had left because of some stupid "arrogance" or "can't take criticism" issue. As I mentioned before, being deliberately silenced by a moderator is the only reason I left (I even talked to Daubster about it, but I bet he never mentioned it to anyone else). No point in "playing the game" when one team can change the rules at will. Does anyone disagree?
A lot of people here I appreciated and still do. But having my maps in a site run by children (mentally at least) who could potentially write stuff in any of my posts, MV entries, journals (Exos anyone?) didn't feel fitting. You can't have moderators be the ones creating and fueling the arguments. It's like politicians trying to be judges and cops. It can't happen, it shouldn't happen.
In any case, I no longer make DM maps or short maps at all, so I wasn't going to put anything in the map vault anymore. My singleplayer projects are bigger now, and you're all free to comment on them in the places they are/will be hosted. Of course, since I can delete the comments I don't like over at Moddb (and so can Phillip at Planetphillip.com), I bet a few of the people here wouldn't bother to enlighten us with their "constructive" input there. Which means that the intention was not one of helping, but instead flaming out of some personal frustration (which we haven't encountered in any of the other places where we host stuff, surprisingly!)

Well, yeah. You know what I mean. Thinking that a map or mod has to perform like, look like, and/or meet every quality standard of a retail game. Which is plainly stupid, unless that's really your goal and you're looking for a job related to that...

HORROR: You don't have to be an expert in the field to comment on the quality of a product!

First, being able to comment doesn't make you an authority on the subject.
Second, maps are not products. You play them for free, giving the maker nothing in return. Hence, swallow your complaints and wait for the refund. If they like your suggestions, they might apply them and improve. If they find them stupid, live with it. They don't owe you anything.

don't claim that others have no right to tell you their subjective opinions because you think you're better at mapping than them

They have all the right in the world, as so have I to dismiss their opinions. Or does this freedom just work in the direction that's convenient to you?

Anyway, all I can say in the end is I'm glad you left.

So much that you still remembered me a year and a half-later. You flatter me, and I don't deserve it.

In the time since you left, you've turned into more of an ass than myself, trapt, etc etc combined.

Aww. That means I'll finish last in your "Best person on Earth" compo. I'll skip it and give the next one a try

Also, Strider is the LAST person I'd consider an asshole, he's one the most unbiased people on the site.

He seemed that way, as did most of you (not Trapt. He never grew up), until the moderator powers fell upon you and your true personalities showed up. It's always easier to taunt the one with the sword when you're carrying a gun, I bet.

Well, I still hold the premise that the mapper (who is a mapper willingly and in his own free time) has to be pleased with what he's doing over the rest of the world. I'm not talking about big mods teams, but even beginner mappers.
Mapping, fixing leaks, finding errors, texturing, playtesting, optimizing etc can become such a huge task that doing so primarily "for the enjoyment of others" in an altruistic fashion is a dumb concept. Or at least smells like masochism to me. And the bad kind.
I count the number of maps I made before ever submitting one online to be around 15. More than enough to define the parameters of who had to be pleased with what I was doing. Some friends played a few of them over LAN, we had a good time, period.
You might argue that it's a mistake to submit maps to sites in which other people can voice their opinions, but with little to zero knowledge of making websites, submitting maps to these sites was the faster way of getting other players (those with similar tastes to mine) to enjoy them, as my friends had done in the past.
The whole "you must catter to the will of the masses" "Your map must be enjoyed by the majority, otherwise it sucks" is just our capitalistic minds infecting every area of our lifes, even the way we carry out our pass-time activities and hobbies. Because that's what mapping is to many.

if you've taken the time to develop a mod and then go release it on multiple mapping sites, you're obviously looking for a little bit more than personal artistic gratification

Of course. Has anyone denied that? What I've said is that a mappers artistic gratification is the top priority, not the only one. I just thought that was more or less clear. The more people can enjoy what I've made and *I* enjoy, the better, as it's an extra. "Not only am I happy with what I've done, but I've gotten other people to have a fun time with it". That's basically the goal.

If you genuinely aren't trying to appeal to anyone's taste in mods, then there's not much point in releasing it

A mapper or mod maker is (or should) trying to appeal to those people who have similar tastes to his own. That begins with the game chosen to map for, continues with the theme, style of gameplay etc.

nobody cares how much the author likes his work, people want to play stuff they enjoy.

If the author really likes his work, it usually shows. It's easy to spot maps that have been made with/without inspiration, with/without a clear idea or goal behind them. At least most of the time.

Edit:

maybe that's the difference between you and a lot of other modders out there

Sure. Ever wondered why so many promising mods (specially long singleplayer ones)end up dying? Don't you think it's related?
It's not a single map you're talking about. It might be 10, 20 maps. If you're not pleased with the results yourself, you'll think others won't be either. Or, there isn't a strong enough idea behind it, making your interest fade away, since there isn't even the promise of money (or the danger of being fired) in the horizon.

I want to comment on something ChickenFist said.

your perception of what looks and plays well doesn't get more "right" just because you're educated, since opinions always are subjective

To be honest, I think subjective opinions should not be part of any map or mod review unless they are positive and encourage more maps from the author or authors.
Objective information (what areas need to be brighter for better map navigation, what weapon needs to be replaced, how the layout should really flow etc) is what should make up a review. Something that's actually helpful. Not all that "Your lighting is crap" "I hate factory themed maps" "It's too difficult for my brain to figure out" "Needs green lights instead of blue" "your blue clashes with the grey and makes my eyes bleed" crap that you read all the time.

If you don't like something, and have no real idea on how to make it objectively better, then don't torture the rest of the world with your "opinions". No-one gives a damn if Minerva:Metastasis had zero voice acting, no friendly NPC interaction, relied on backtracking more than vainilla HL2 or had no new significant themes and materials. The focus was obviously not there! Try to understand the intentions and objectives of something before even attempting to mention its flaws.

With all that old talk of "arrogance!" etc, I'd like to hear anyone whom I might have offended in any of my map vault reviews of their maps or threads about their WIP stuff. Seriously. Did I ever do that? Am I doing that now in Moddb or Planet Phillip?
According to Penguinboy, all my input on other people's maps and mods should have showed some continuous "better than thou" attitude. Did that really happen? Can you give examples? I always tried to be both helpful and diplomatic. I still do the same to this day.
Of course, I couldn't be as diplomatic when facing those ignorant one-liners from Trapt & Co, or Penguinboy blaming us for the obvious actions in "The Citizen" that hundreds of players were able to pull off but which got him and a few others very frustrated, angry and jumpy(as if we owed them anything? Yeah right.)
It's funny that "The Citizen" being the same flawed creation in all the sites were it was submitted, and the authors being the same "arrogant people who can't take criticism", TWHL was the ONLY place in which any real argument took place.
Stop searching for excuses and do the math. The fault was here among you. Everyone else in the Internet seems to have some manners and knowledge on how to be helpful and thankful at the same time.

No, you misunderstood. I agree. What I meant was ignore the people who doesn't like it and enjoy the positive feedback you get, just like you're saying.

There are mainly two kinds of feedback: real, and made up.

-The real feedback can be subjective
"I enjoyed this"
"I didn't enjoy this"
or objective:
"This needs fixing because of this and that..."
"That sequence was perfectly timed..."

-The made up feedback is always subjective, yet tries to be objective:
"I didn't like this map, hence it's crap"
"I don't like the freedom of your texture scheme, hence it looks awful"
"Your lighting isn't spotty and blue, meaning it's crap"
"I found your puzzles hard to figure out, which makes the game bad for everyone".

Obviously, I only have issues with made up feedback. I have never discarded technical feedback, and I've always welcomed any positive comments which meant that the map or mod worked subjectively as entertainment for other people besides me.
But your subjective dislike? Your subjective preferences for things that are open to interpretation? You can keep those and apply them for your own maps, enlightening the rest of us with your skills, not your easy words.

Edit

Why? One right doesn't cancel the other.

What I mean is, no-one forces you to comment on maps or mods. You're free to do so, and free to skip the whole process. Now if you do participate, don't expect others to forcefully accept your personal views, suggestions etc. They have a right to dismiss your incredibly valuable input as much as you have of giving it. If you keep knocking on the door once someone has said it's closed, don't expect smiles and pats on the back. Live with it.

"Your opinion? Young man, I am the better mapper. You don't have the authority to have an opinion, and if you don't like my work you are jealous."

I have never said that. You can always have an opinion, but that doesn't give you any authority over those who have clearly done more than you on any given subject. All your rights to speak out are cancelled by the rights of others to ignore you. It can't get simpler than that.
While I've changed many things in my maps in this decade, I was certainly not going to put up with the childish rants of people like Trapt or Ant when they were based on their subjective opinions, and as such had no reason whatsoever to force me to change my initial texture or lighting schemes. You can call it arrogance or chips or fries, but I've had a lot of university subjects and classes on colour theory, lighting, construction etc, enough to not deserve some of my choices to be defined as "random" out of ignorance or malice.

If players like it they will say so. If they don't, well, then they just didn't think it was that great - if you didn't do it to please them, who cares?

You're wrong. I said I should be the #1 person who'd have to be pleased with my maps, but not the only one. I make my maps for myself and for those who'll enjoy them (people who have similar tastes in architectural, gameplay or even story aspects as me).
You talk of players as a unified group of people, yet not everyone likes the same maps and mods. So even if 2000 people disliked my map and 500 people liked it, I'd still prefer to keep those 500 people and myself happy. Who wouldn't?
Get it your head, we are not in the game industry. The number of people we please does not translate to money. Hence, it becomes secondary.

Well yeah, no-one likes the feeling, really.

Alongside a "Kasperg, you REALLY CAN'T talk" comment, more than enough. And it was more than a post. Otherwise I'd seen it as a browser error. But I insisted, and found Strider's little game. Which I wasn't and I'm not going to play.
When someone puts tape over your mouth in a meeting, I bet you'd leave the room too. It's just a guess.

God bless Seventh Monkey. :'(

Daubster, I wasn't really speaking of The Citizen in these posts, but actually of dm_suspended (http://www.snarkpit.net/index.php?s=maps&game=2&mod=23&map=2727), with which a few people were unable see when their criticism or suggestions weren't being helpful and was time to let go. By the way, I never got any of those "lighting is crap" "needs moar propz" "textures are poop and ugly" amazing feedback in the other sites it was submitted to. Weird, huh?

No, I quit a community in which a moderator decided to mock me by deleting/silencing my posts.
If that was where the community was heading, it's a train no-one would force me to take. That was the only reason I left. The other stuff had been going on for a long time and everyone coped with it just fine.

And I repeat, v 1.1 of The Citizen took the feedback from all the sites it was posted in (including twhl) to be a better experience. Playbus left for other reasons, by the way.

What a pathetic timewaste of an ass I am then.

No, you're lying
Honestly, if you change a texture theme you find pretty (or actually motivated you to make a map) to something you find ugly just because "your fans" want it that way then yes, you'd probably be an ass and be wasting your time pathetically, searching not for the enjoyment of your work and your results, but instead the pat on the back of a small Internet community. I hope you're not like that.
Of course, the starting point is that YOU are also a player, and you like the kind of gameplay and visuals you're making, validating what you're doing. 100.000 people who never get to play your map might agree. But you'd change it for those 20 who don't? Really?
Let's be clear. Likes and dislikes, different opinions regarding games/films/books are a dime a dozen. So starting with the fact that you'll never please everyone at the same time, who would you side with? You'd choose those who dislike what you're doing over yourself and those who do like it? (mind you, you're not selling anything to a target demographic) Is the need of fame and recognizition in a couple of obscure videogame sites as strong as to make you go against your creative ideas, gameplay preferences etc?
I'm amazed, I really am

I always took criticism when needed, and discarded it when it wasn't going to help my maps by MY point of view. Me being of course, the #1 person who should be pleased with the final result. Any mapper who maps for the fans above themselves is either lying or is a complete ass and is wasting his time pathetically. I'm sorry to be so direct, but that's my personal view on that.
I think the surge of so many custom maps and mods for the HL series (a lot of them being as good or better than the retail content) created a legion of pampered players who all of a sudden deserved quality work and the strict meeting of standards from those altruist level designers and had the authority to criticize and mock the works in question, as if releasing a map was automatically making it a contestant for some stupid competion to see if "his is bigger than yours!". Quite stupid, and defies all the basic premises of what mapping was for me. 1)A pass-time for my enjoyment 2)A creative and learning process in which experience made the following work better 3)A way to keep the games I liked alive by sharing the maps with a community and providing people with free fun, just as I got from theirs.
The moment you think maps and mods are commercial products just like films and retail games, you've failed and killed the community. It happened in Snark Pit, it happened or will happen here. All this has happened, and will happen again. Drive away those who are learning, attack those who are still releasing stuff. Great job!

Huntey, I'm overacting it to give them at least some reason to call me "arrogant". It's no fun if their arguments are flawed from the start.

You mentioned Trapt, and understandably, because the man is a complete fuckstain. The fact is, though, when it comes to level design he knows exactly what he's talking about and when you read past his utterly twattish manner he actually has some genuinely helpful advice.

Of which I have a few examples, the ones directed to me of course.

Looks terrible. Edit: no, that is not sarcastic.

Textures clash terribly and look seemingly random.
Lighting is boring. Really really boring.
Propwork is just poop.

No one said the brushwork is poop. BUT THE LIGHTING IS EXTREMELY BAD!

I know what you may think is good is different to my ideas, but whatever. I'm sure most people agree with me more than you.

I don't care much for your ... maps in general.

I could go on. Those were always so helpful and showed that he really knew what he was talking about. Hehehe.

The big, strong, popular kids are just calling you fat because they're jealous of you.

No...It'd be something like "The kids who can't paint crap are saying your drawings suck because they are jealous of you." (Which anyone who has been to school knows that's the way it usually happens).

Releasing a large-scale mod like you did is no easy task, but it does not give you the right to look down and act like an asshole to the people who haven't, because at the end of the day, those are the people you're trying to please and those are definately the people you should be listening to.

I think this is where the main problem arises. People thinking that amateur level designers owe them something or are trying to please THEM. Working months or even years to please those people even ABOVE themselves? And all of that FOR FREE?. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous!! It's such a flawed concept, and I can't imagine why you'd even propose it. I'm really astonished (maybe because in my first 3 years of mapping, I didn't share the maps with anyone. I made them because I enjoyed it). Pleasing the fans?? In exchange for what exactly? We get nothing from those who get hours of fun (or not that much fun) from us for free.
You really need to start seeing reality. Valve /= mappers who map for fun. I don't care if the tools are the same, the community that plays the maps is the same. Whatever. Level designers who do this out of their own free will and free time owe NOTHING to the rest of the world. Not quality, not expertly tested gameplay, not lenght. Absolutely nothing. Anything you get to experience from a small DM map or a big SP mod is 100% a gift from the makers. You want to help them with your input? Fine, as long as it's polite and you're willing to accept they might not be up to it/had noticed those flaws/have no intention on spending more time on the same maps/mod.
Sometimes the makers release their work when they feel to. They aren't tied by what others wish. And they release it with the amount of quality or content that they think neccessary, are able to do, or are willing to do (all maps can be perfected, but not all maps deserve the time needed for it).

Ignore comments? Like you failed to do?

I don't understand what this means. But it's clear that what can't really be dealt with here is counter-criticism. Some people can't accept being wrong when reviewing and pointing out possible flaws, thinking that the fact that they're in the receiving end gives them a power and knowledge that is unquestionnable and deserves more respect than maps or mods themselves. I didn't agree with that and still don't.
Once again: In life, you can talk all you want about anything you want. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to have something you're the author of to have any authority to talk directly to authors of other stuff in a disrespectful and patronizing tone. Otherwise, your comments have no power to them, nothing to back them up, and fall into the deep bag of "I can't do what this guy does, but I must find some flaw", which as I said is derived from jealousy. I'm talking about the ill intended type of comments, not the technical specific comments that adress real issues (can you find any of those in Trapts comments I quoted or I missed when quoting?) or the "I liked this and that, but this other thing could be improved by doing this" that should accompany any real review that is trying to be both thankful and helpful.

Habboi, we mainly update our god-awful upcoming mod in Moddb
http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-citizen-part-ii/

But Planetphillip sometimes gets exclusive screenshots.
http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/the-citizen-2-pre-release-half-life-2/

Playbus is fine, finishing a very original and interesting mod with a surreal theme. But you won't see him ever coming back here from what I know.

Upcoming exams and two lenghty HL2SP mods in progress. Can't do

For the record, I deleted one comment because that particular 'arguement' was done and dusted. I told everyone to stop because opinions are opinions.

Then I apologize Strider. I just remembered you typing something like "You REALLY can't talk" in the shoutbox, as if gloating over the fact that your newly acquired moderator powers let you delete any comment that didn't please you (in that case, it contained no insults. It was something like "And others seem to be insulting, but since they're moderators it's fine with you").

The topic about your power to criticize is really very simple. Anyone can talk, anyone can have an opinion on something. But unless you've actually done the same thing, know what this or that needed to be made, you're not really an authority on the subject. Period. I can talk all I want about how I didn't like this or that about Terminator 3, but since I've never made a film, and much less one of that scope, I have NO authority to speak, and my comments (although some might be true) can be ignored by the filmmakers. I don't know more than them. They are probably more aware of the mistakes and know exactly we they came out like that. Sometimes wrong decisions are spotted too late and something has to be worked out.
Same thing goes with maps. You might know how to make a room and compile it lights and props, but until you make a 16 map mod in 8 months for everyone to play for free, you really don't have any authority to disrespect it or its authors. It's not something you paid for and were cheated with.

If you've played v 1.1 of The Citizen, a lot of the changes suggested by Strider, Ant etc were taken into account and the mod improved. But I guess that really wasn't the intention back then. It was just some burst of frustration and envy by some individuals, which is understandable.

You can keep calling people names (I'm sorry I did in my last post), but it won't change anything. I think I had more than 50 maps a few years ago, and a lot of members of this site had a great part in how they turned out. Be it comments on the MV, comments on screenshots and even playtesting in Muzz's server. Only a few (coincidentally of Australian majority?) people seemed extra edgy and frustrated when commenting on my work. Even more so when some of their purely subjective suggestions were discarded by me or other users (arrogance can exist even without talent, it seems!).
So bla bla bla all you want. It won't change the fact that this site isn't even a quarter of what it was back then. And the biggest change to the site were you guys taking over. Enjoy it, and try not to be too affected by my comments, which I'm sure you'll find it very hard.

Kasperg couldn't take criticism (even though it was harshly delivered - that doesn't mean it wasn't true) very well, so he got pissed off and left.

Not really. Strider started to delete my shoutbox comments and that kind of kiddy retarded behaviour was something I wasn't going to have. Little jelous kids taking over the site was probably the start of its downfall.
About the criticism, you're still wrong about it. I've always taken criticism when it made sense and/or helped my work. It was a few people (Ant, Trapt etc) who couldn't take the counter-criticism (sensible explanations of choices regarding texture and lighting choices), god knows why (jelousy, probably).
About the media for The Citizen Part 2, wait to play the mod until you have anything to say about its quality. And once you've played it, wait and make your own better HL2 mod to have any authority to criticize.
Until next year.
A

Ok, seems fair. But I'm still reviewing October's winner.
(by the way, are any of those contributions to the site something that we can see right now, or is it related to coding? I'm asking because my contributions include having more than 40.000 people finding out about this site through the Kaufmann House mention in the Wikipedia article. It might not be as great as your coding contributions, but it's also something, right? )

Yes, no doubt about it ;).

Why would you delete it? Been proven wrong too many times or what? I see no explanation to why you'd delete people's opinions regarding mapping and map rating. But do whatever you want and use that little joy in life the ultra-moderator powers grant you

I'm being an idiot? Insults are the universal message for "I've run out of arguments". Of course I mentioned silent voting before, but you have kept defending the current system AS MUCH as I have been questionning it. It seems in the end you actually agree with me and you know the system is flawed because:

People can rally and vote for a map which is not the one they've liked best (even if you claim it is) to vote against another one.

What's your view on this?
Wait, don't tell me: "It's democracy, people can do whatever they want" as you said earlier. Since so can I, no harm done.
At least we've attracted more attention to the thread, haven't we?

IF SOMEONE DOESN'T WANT A PARTICULAR MAP TO WIN, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ENJOY IT, AND LIKED ANOTHER MAP BETTER, THEY VOTE FOR THE MAP THAT THEY LIKED BETTER

I know that, and I've said it repeatedly. But you either can't read or just don't get it, sigh
With a hidden vote, people would indeed do that. With the current public voting, people can rally and vote for a map which is not the one they've liked best (even if you claim it is) to vote against another one. Can you understand that last sentence, or should I type it again with capital letters?
Everything you're saying is just repeating what I said before, and ignoring what I have complained about. The proof is that I haven't even said what I think about dm_particle because that's not the issue at hand. Like I said, I don't care which map wins, because I've seen them and I know how to judge maps objectively, a skill some of you lack but which is essential to being part of a mapping community, not just a gaming one.

And for the nth time, I'm quite happy "some other random site" which is exclusively dedicated to reviewing singleplayer maps and mods has received it nicely.

Edit:a new revelation for you on how humans act. The number of people who like something can be big, and the number of people who don't can be small, yet they will always make more noise. That puts controversial maps at a disadvantage if you allow negative voting to happen. Should I write it in capital letters or is it understandable?

I think Penguinboy should start deleting posts in here that are either related to the voting system or have anything resembling flaming in them.

I think everyone is being correct enough. If you have to resort to censorship concerning my posts, it means you've run out of arguments. I'm not Orpheus guys!

I have no problems with me ego, and that's why I don't spend my time putting down other people's work, which is what some people here do to balance their lack of skill. I just enjoy mapping and helping other mappers. You'll never see me say anything bad about a map without saying the good. That's not exactly what an arrogant person with a mapping experience similar to mine would do, is it?

If somebody doesn't think The Citizen deserves to win, they vote for the other map.

You just said that people vote for a map they like, and now you're admitting that the premise is that the voting is "The Citizen" vs. the rest. Make up your mind! hehe

If you still argue that the voting system sucks because some people don't think you should win, then it just proves how ridiculously arrogant you are

People should think who should win, not who shouldn't win. You stated so before
I insist (because you still don't get it) that it's irrelevant to me who likes it or not. An average rating of 9.01/10 out of 79 votes across three sites gives me a good indication of who has liked this first installment even with its bugs.

Kasperg, the definition of what "voting against a map" consists of is in this case sketchy at best

For example, "I vote for dm_particle because I don't want the citizen to win" or "anything else that people vote that is not The Citizen" ? Those weren't subtle at all, were they?

The system is not perfect, and it's not working as fine as you say because now maps are not being voted just on the basis of who's enjoying them (I won't bother mentioning quality issues since they don't exist for many people and that's ok), but on the basis of "who is voting wha"t and "who made what", and "who we don't want to win". Democratic, yes. Perfect? haha

That doesn't contradict what Playbus stated in any way. He was comparing the number of total downloads with the number of total votes.
Unless people download maps to fill up CDs with and never actually play them, all of the nominated maps have gotten very few votes compared to how many times they've been downloaded. Which shows the participation is low. Not only that, there's absolutely no way to know if everyone who has voted for The Citizen has actually played it, if everyone voting for dm_particle has actually played, etc.

If we really had the time and will to do so, deciding map compos could be done by having users make video reviews. I know it's impossible, but It'd really give people a chance to really make a point about their opinion and judging criteria or on the other hand, show evidence of their inconsistency and ambiguity while reviewing maps. I bet we'd get tons of videos of people walking around empty fy style maps saying "I just enjoy it! lulz. It's my democratic opinion."

No. It means MotM, like the rest of the TWHL community things, is a big failure in terms of participation. It's been that way for years.

(In case anyone wants to know, neither Playbus nor I have provided the link to the TWHL map vault entry anywhere outside this site. Planet Phillip and Snarkpit had the map some hours before and none of their users download through here).

You did nothing wrong Skeetz. Of course you can map for the map you liked best. But not everyone does that, because democracy let's you do whatever you want and it's cool to go against something "for the lulz".

In any case, dm_biological would take my vote. I'm sorry but the layout being the same as dm_vapour, dm_particle etc, it's a much more pleasant arena to fight in, since you can actually always see where you're going.

@The Hunter:
I'm perfectly calm. You always get the strange idea that I'm angry or something (my projects thread). I'll try to win back your respect with the Hostage Situation maps I'm still working on.

I didn't see anti-voting the previous months, or a big mod showing up.
Changes things a bit

No, you're right. I'm sorry.
You guys win. Do whatever you want with your freedom. I'm afraid I won't be able to help with MotM anymore since the current voting system has proven to be far from perfect this month.

Naturally, since by voting you give one point to the map you liked the most, all the other maps you could've voted for recieve sort of an "anti-vote"

Come on, we are all intelligent enough to see that I was specifically talking about those who didn't like dm_particle above the rest, and voted it just because it was in a position to overtake The Citizen. And they specifically said so. (of course, they changed their motives to "I really did enjoy it", but it no longer works after saying "I voted it because I didn't want The Citizen to win"

@doodle:
Is trapt's dm map competing with Halo 2 in any way? Nope. And I repeat, even if I had fun with Trapt's map I would still recommend Halo2 as the Map of the Month, because I know that it can offer people much more than a single dark dm_map can in every way.

@Strider:

One high quality map could easily shit over 15 low quality maps, deal with it

That's hardly the case
And people who don't want to read can skip the parts they don't want. I think everyone has figured out the use of the scrollbar.

It makes perfect sense. If the amount of content in a map or mod adds to the experience (which for me it always does because I like seeing new gameplay, characters and spatial situations), then it's possible that The Citizen (16 maps and quite a bit of custom content) would instantly be better than single maps which at best offer me a new WAD file or a new model to look at... What's so difficult to understand about that?

Sure, there's loads of effort put in it, but that doesn't make it instantly superior to everything released in the MV, does it?

It depends. If the amount of content counts for anything (which for me it always does), then it's possible. But again that wasn't the problem. It's only the lame anti-vote attitude which I think hurts MotM more than The Citizen, which has already had its fair amount of praise so far.

"NYANYA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU! CITIZEN PWNS!!"

Can you quote anyone saying that? Nope.

some people just don't like The Citizen and they're voting for what they think is the next best release

You know what, even though I didn't really like Doom3, I wouldn't vote for Elite Force 2 just so Doom3 wouldn't win. But then again that's just me I have to stop thinking everyone is capable of judging with the head and not the heart.
But you get that everywhere. Vilcabamba scored 78% in the Abandoned Workshops, and Idol Hunt (which includes an improved Vilcabamba and 5 other maps) scored the exact same 78%. People don't know jack about consistency reviewing maps or mods.

Is that all you can add to a mapping discussion and a procedure-related issue?
Doesn't put you in a better position than anyone who's posted in this thread lately, does it?

yes, I finished the mod, and it must say it improves a bit gameplay-wise toward the end (although the level quality drops a little bit).

I find it hard to finish a 2-hour mod if I'm not enjoying it...
Which levels are the ones you think drop in quality? The library? The conference hall? ...

I could say that people voting for The Citizen are voting against dm_particle, hence making the voting system unfair and childish. But that would just be stupid.

Has anyone said they are voting for The Citizen because they don't want dm_particle to win? Nope. But I showed you the contrary is true.

I think I'm too influenced by my own way of rating maps that I can't get into other people's heads.
When I see and play a map, there are usually things I like and things I don't like. In terms of architecture, 90% of the maps I see have something which I don't like and which any architect would laugh at. But I usually keep those to myself, because I know others won't care as much!
I review maps based on how my appreciation of them might help other users decide if the map is worth a look, not on how much fun I had with it or not, because I know my tastes don't have to be shared by everyone. As such, I usually focus on real and objective facts about the maps, which are the only ones that help the mapper and are valid for anyone reading the review because they're not opinion-based, they're fact-based. That's the only consistent way to review maps, and ultimately the only way to help others. Who cares if Bob doesn't like temple maps when he's rating John's map? No-one. But they might care if Bob thinks the theme could use a different type of lighting.

I already showed you with quotes who was clearly voting against The Citizen. I can't go into people's head and know the exact truth, but some of you actually specified it. Don't try to hide that.
Did you by any chance play the whole mod?

I can accept anyone voting for any map, but I don't have to like people voting against another map. No matter how you put it, that's a very lousy way of deciding any type of competition, let alone a mapping one.
Can you answer this question being 100% honest? If Masta Killa had released "The Citizen" and Playbus and I had released "dm_particle", would they have 7 votes each right now?
...
Gotcha

Don't use your mod privileges to silence people when you see fit and dictate when or where off-topic and on-topic periods start. Specially if you've just written an off-topic post. I don't think that's fair and it could mean you're unable to politely discuss this matter.
It has everything to do with MotM November so it's perfectly inside the main topic.

All this going on about how you absolutely know without a doubt that your mod is obviously superior to everyone else's

I'd never say that, specially because there just isn't any other mod to compete against. I think that reason alone makes things different: For me, I thought this whole MotM thing was a way to tell people (members and outsiders) that if they had to download only one thing out of the whole TWHL map vault production for that month, it would have to be that map and no other. So in that sense it's hard for us to understand why you'd specifically not want a certain map to be recommended, one which we think has objectively a lot more to offer to users, without being perfect or "Mod of the Year", or have Valve's signature.

It is arrogant and indeed childish that you don't accept someone else's opinion just because it is negative.

Not only do we accept it, we've modified many things for the update with your advice, Trapt's, Strider's etc. But we're talking about a thread to vote for a map you like, not against one you don't like! You have a thread and a MV entry to throw all your Citizen complaints at. Seems that's not enough.

It is perfectly acceptable to vote for another option because you don't want another option to get in. this is how democracy works. If you don't like one option, you vote for the other. Simple as that.

That's pretty lame, and just shows the people who do so as nothing more than little kids. When you are talking about politics, you specifically don't want a certain party to rule your country, that's why you vote for the other one. How you extrapolate it to this really puzzles me. Does it hurt your life so much to see mapA or mapB win?
We won't and can't take that little joy of life from you, so do whatever you want.

That's actually a good idea saw1833.