Bad maps, why are they played?! Created 18 years ago2006-01-29 20:40:19 UTC by Xyos212

I recently played a map in CS:S called assault old. It was in source, but the most sorry excuse for a map ever concieved! It had so many noob problems. Cars going into the ground, stretched textures, things WAAAAAY out of proportion, etc. Please, People on this site who are good at mapping (maybe me.... ) lol, Get your maps online so people can see them!!! These crappy maps cannot be allowed to exist, when the mapvault here has so much better ones!! Im sorry, but the map had 18 people in it playing, and it was just so bad!

The general multiplayer crowd (especially CS players) usually don't give a fuck about how the map looks, unless they map themselves. If the map is decently funny and liked, and you get it on a major server, it'll be played alot. Nothing one can do about it.

My thoughts about that: people who can't appreciate good maps don't deserve to play in them. Let them play in those maps. They'll never know what they are missing.
And as I have mentioned several times in the forums, if you give your map a name like cs_assault256, fy_iceworld3002 etc, people will actually download them even if they're crap.

Ya, when I began mapping, I developed a new way to look at games. I see what htey did to a map, and say: Thats cool, or that looks really good. The good mappers on this site deserve some sort of recognition for their great work, becides support from this site.

For most CS players, if you make a map and name it anything "dust"whatever, people are going to download it like crazy. They're like lemmings.

But I deal with people at work, so I am not surprised. I already know that the vast majority of the general public are idiots.

Visuals aren't everything. Although they help a lot the real reason people like maps like that is because of gameplay.

Visuals are the reason we're not playing atari and NES.
A good looking map with bad gameplay is nice to look at. A bad looking map with good gameplay can be fun, but gets boring quickly and hurts the eyes. Specially when its simplicity is due (most of the time) to the mapper being lazy. Game and visuals, game and visuals, you can't have one without the other.
When I see a good looking map with bad gameplay I think: A lot of work has gone into this map, but it wasnt properly playtested.
When I see a bad looking map with good gameplay I think: this could have been great if the mapper had put interest into what he was doing.
My conclusion: If we just wanted to have fun, we'd be playing Duck Hunt instead of these new games.

I already know that the vast majority of the general public are idiots.

Welcome to America.

For most CS players, if you make a map and name it anything "dust"whatever, people are going to download it like crazy. They're like lemmings.

ROFL I should put "dust" in front of all the maps I make...even if they have nothing to do with it.

we'd be playing Duck Hunt instead of these new games

The funny thing is, that's my friend's favorite game.

He has no interests in any of the new games, either console or PC. Instead, he's old school and dwells on Pac-Man or Asteroid.

Welcome to America

lmao. 'nuff said.

Although gameplay is important, great visuals can also sell a map. For example, de_dust233211223 is a normal unknown map until BAM! you name it de_dust233211223_hdr. Now people like it.

What I mean is that advanced visual techniques can also make people want to play maps.

Great visuals aren't required in a map, this community is far too hyped up on looks of a map.
The original half-life maps are awesome, and they are really fun, where as most of them look awful.
Now I admit, visuals can be important, and improve a map, but it is far more important to have great game play, but saying that, you can't forgo decent visuals either, since even if a map is great fun, and it looks awful, it detracts from it.
Where as if you have a map that is great fun to play, and it looks decent, it has enough detail, and no major faults, then it is fine really.

/opinion.

In CS, the bad maps are the favorites of average players because they make they don't have to think while playing : they just endlessly spawn/buy ak/move pointer to enemies heads/fire/get pwned/type "/rank" or "/hp"/wait for the end of the round, while a good map make players have to learn it ...

I think more people would use the TWHL map vault if it was easier to navigate. I suggest a better filtering system and clearer text, on the resolution I use 1280X960 its quite hard to make out what each map is for, perhaps a file system so that CSS maps are all in one place, CS maps are all in one place HLDM - etc. Although it is possible to do this, technically, with the current system its not very user friendly.

I HATE IT when i go onto a server (its CS.. seriously, almost all other game's custom maps have to look good too) and they're playing some shit like "aim_aklolz0rzvscoltcuzwer0ck" and everytime you complain you get shit about being a noob, not knowing a proffesional map when you see one... it pisses me off something rotten.

and its a box with 4 smaller boxes in it, fullbright and horrid stretched textures.. AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

lets all go play "cs/de/as_dust2006lolmark2modifiedversion12"

I think more people would use the TWHL map vault if it was easier to navigate. I suggest a better filtering system and (...) - etc

The first thing to do with the map vault as for all the opinion pool systems on internet about CS maps is to ban all the retards who give the best mark and a "GG" as comment to all the nub jobs around...

WTF NOOBS AIM MAPS ARE FTW! LEIK TOTALLY

ohmigosh WCDude, j00r noo duts map is teh pwn! how cum u otha mapprs cnt follw h1s example?! 11 1 1! 1 1 ! !! 1 1 !

Rimrook, especialee! how cum u cnt make the stunng dust replica chewd up 50 times? lol. fag!

[/sarcasm to the extent that my fingers bleed]

an example of... well, just read...

http://www.kzfr.net/Forums_KZFR//index.php?s=0&showtopic=419

the topic is in french, here is a translation here :

first post
little edit of my finished maps ...

kz_6fd_volcano
kz_adv_quadrablock
kz_adv_underground
kz_beachmountain
kz_boulder_b01
kz_bye_erarock
kz_canyon
kz_cellblock
kz_chinabl0ck_ez
kz_civilizations
kz_climbers_b01
kz_concise[easy]
kz_crs_iceclimb
kz_ea_harbor !!!!!!!!!!!!!
kz_ea_oldgraveyard
kz_ep_gigablock_b01
kz_exn_ezjungle
kz_exn_jungle
kz_ezalpin
kz_ezboulder_b01
kz_fairy_island
kz_giantbean_b15
kz_giantbean_b15[1337trees]
kz_giantbean_b15[sequoia]
kz_jett_mountain
kz_kzfr_rabbithighwayez
kz_m3_xmas_b00
kz_man_australia
kz_man_beanstalk_b02
kz_man_cameron
kz_man_climbers
kz_man_congo_b01
kz_man_dragon
kz_man_dreaming
kz_man_eznasa
kz_man_eztemple
kz_man_halloween2004
kz_man_owtcity
kz_man_riverside
kz_man_terablock[easy]
kz_man_terablock[hard]
kz_man_trippin
kz_minimountain
kz_peak_b01
kz_peak_b02
kz_px_eaglecliff
kz_real_skyscraper
kz_sandblock_ez
kz_stonehenge
kz_wsp_inferno
kz_wsp_marioland
kz_wsp_snowbeach
kz_wsp_valleyclimb
kz_xj_mountez
kz_man_bhopforest
kz_man_bhopdesert
kz_man_nasa
kz_kzfr_treeclimb

59 maps

Record LJ : 242

second post
well my competitor, time to finish maps, "hf and gl man" (in english in the post)

third post
it's ok yesterday I finished 5 maps in the same day hehe

fourth post
(the first part is totally ununderstandable)
so gg for all map small padawan

fifth post
lol I've finished 16 maps in the same last holiday week xD

etc ...

I've been reading a lot about game design lately, and that's changing my view on mapping somewhat.

Mainly that I don't put visuals so high anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's important, but not automatically important.
See, there's different types of players. Some play purely for the core gameplay. The 'dust' people. Those that up their monitor gamma to get a better view on enemies.
Others prefer visuals more, it's more the complete immersion they like. You can think of more types of players but I think you'll get the idea: it's about the public.
If your public are those that like the gameplay only, then you're not going to spend too much time (or, in this situation, wasting time) on visuals.
If your public likes immersion and realistic, or themed, gameplay experience, you'll spend a lot of time getting the visuals and the logical interaction right.

Of course, visuals and gameplay serve more goals. Visuals help sell a game, or map, better. Visuals enhance the immersion. Bad visuals hurt eyes on the other hand.
Gameplay is what keeps people coming back - or not. On the other hand, some people like to explore more than action scene's or other things. Naturally, these people like to see new things every time, so they're more likely to switch to other maps or games faster. Again, public...

I don't think 'good' and 'bad' are so black and white. It depends on if they suit well with their public. Dust193.683.102 maps and the like are horrible in our eyes, but they appeal to a certain public... so why worry about it? I know I wouldn't want to play those maps, but they're not made for me, so that's no problem.
Say, I created a visual masterpiece, that happens to play well too. But I aimed at a public of puzzle-gamers. Then my nice and smooth action-packed level happens to be bad for them.

About not thinking to play... that's the meaning of the word 'amuse'. A-muse. I like to relax and play something easy once in a while too. Most of the time I prefer games that need a little more thinking (and the best of those games award good thinking, but allow little thinking too). I don't always want to spend hours and hours learning something... that's not what people want. They want to play. So, naturally, if a game or map requires you to learn something, either make it simple, or pack it into the playing itself. Half-Life 2 did this fantastically with the gravity gun and the spores. Other games have long manuals and a lot of boring tutorial maps, that totally take the speed out of it and only delay the fun I want to have, up to the point that I give up because I don't think it's worth the investment anymore...

//rant

J.C. that list of posts made baby Jesus cry.

WCdude, that post made Captain Obvious proud.

seems the french are worse then the americans, but were pretty bad. eg. friday I was at the nearest Gaming cafe (lined with computers, goth's in black lit back corner, n00bs playing CS maps, etc...

So I go to the first open PC and start playing CS. the only server that had people in it was playing a map that was 2 buildings textured with labfloorX separated by a deep (and as sqaure as you can get I must say) casm, weapons littered the spawn points, n00b fests resulted.

so next time I go there Im bringing every good CS map from TWHL to have my friend who works there upload them and start up a server with them on it, while I go around and pull the ethernet cord out of all the nub's computers who were currently hosting crappy servers.

and they will be pwnd. because they can't figure out a normal map

This just proves that the primitive elements that make a map up matter more than anything else. Elements such as ambush points, chokes, and good cover and objective placements. I find this remarkable information.

yea,I entered to server like that too.I told em how the map was designed so badly and...in a shorter way,I said*This map sux*to the mapper of the crappy map.There was no lights,there was no architecture and the mapper was babling about a truck he made in there.And I told everyone that it was a prefab...and well..they banned and kicked me.

Mappers like these:
http://www.twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3636

Damn what an idiot, he can't even take constructive critisisim! I hope all the guys like that will be pissed off like him, if not TWHL might turn into an horrible community, and the map vault will be spammed with so called 5 stars maps.

Oh, I am confused, and sorry, but it appears that I might be wrong with the topic I reported here about "kz" maps : it looks like they are talking about maps they have finished (they played and reach the objective) and not maps they made, well sorry then, and in the same time I'm quite glad this level of mediocrity hasn't still be reached !

Well I'd say that the people, who like crappy shit (aim_ak_colt for e.g) are complete csg33ks, looking for something 'new'. I could quote a conversation between me and some other csgeeks(while playing aim_ak_colt):
<got killed in the start, along with 1 T>
Daubster [dead]: Ffs, this map is fullbright. Mapchange please!
Killer107 [dead]: wht does fullbright mean??
<a few more headshots and rants bout getting killed, because of lag>
Daubster [dead]: fullbright = no shadows
Killer107 [dead]: well dats kewl, coz u can c campwr fgtz
Daubster [dead]: cmon, i bet that it took like 5 mins to make this fuckin excuse for a map.
<a few more frags>
Daubster [dead]: It's a goddamn block with another 4 blocks in it, ffs
Killer107 [dead]: it haz aks and clot in it, u noob!!!!!!!!!! dats kewl!! if I woz a maper lk u id mkae mapz lk diz all tha time!!
Daubster [dead]: plz, someone change this map to something playable!!
Snipar1145: no!!!1 dis map r0x!!
Daubster [dead]: mapchange plz
Snipar1145 [dead]: stfu, u nbu!!
<3 alive left>
Daubster [dead]: who the fuck is the admin??
[DMS]{==UNFRAGABLE==} [dead]: Really, what's your fuckin problem? 20 more mins left in this map, so stfu!
*Daubster disconnected

Now the way I get it, the geeks get so degraded, that they only care bout the gameplay, not the map (I have a few classmates, who are like that). when I told my classmates, that I'm a mapper, I got flooded with requests for a map that went from 1 room with spawns next to each other (i had bout 5 more similar requests) to the map of a huge shopping mall..
My opinion is: Don't even try to bother changing something. It's simply futile..
:

Huge shoping mall... well might be nice to map a mall in source, but it's too big for Hl1, all the shops... the bomb site will be the bank.

they only care bout the gameplay

What gameplay?

doing endlessly
1?) to spawn,
2?) to grab a weapon,
3?) to see somebody enemy,
4?) to move the pointer on his head,
5?) to click/kill,
6?) to die,
7?) to wait,
is not a gameplay, it's nothing, it could be possible to make the same game in a nub flash "game" : the gameplay is a matter of choice, that a player A will do this while a player B will do that instead, that all games are not alike, that you have to think, that all players are different while playing. Most "fun" maps have no gameplay, this is exactly their points : people playing them just look like bots, but surely not like players ...