Religion. Created 18 years ago2006-08-03 16:36:41 UTC by ZombieLoffe

Yes, I think we can close it. Because from this thread we have learned three things:

1. Adults with imaginary friends are, in fact, stupid. Although Gods are not imaginary friends.
2. Nobody but Jobabob is allowed to know anything about ANYTHING... EVER.
3. Islam is bad for the economy.

Can't help myself...got to put my two bobs worth in now.

I believe the Bible was created to give hope and answers to people to explain how things like rocks, man/woman, suffering etc, came about.
This "Fairytale" way back then was the only conceivable way to explain the miracles of day to day general life, and pacify people who are afraid to die.
I say believe in what you want, like the old saying "what ever floats your boat" but I hate it when people use religion to justify their actions such like wars or for self gain and what?s worse is when someone tells me I will burn in hell and uses the Bible to threaten me (bullying bastards).
I watched the news the other day and the Israeli leader said all Jews around the world are united and believe in the killing/bombing of Lebanon is justified, maybe he is acting as the so called God killing men woman and children and using religion to justify his actions.

I am happy just being me, I don't care to much for religion in the way that it is abused, I am guided by my morals, and before you all start this was thanks to my parents.

/rant

This pretty much sums it all up.

The endless discussion.
Although, the bible-man's argument is a bit stupid

Will people stop posting "OMG THESE THREADS ARE USELESS"? (Got your attention now, didn't I)
I, and I can imagine (but not be sure, of course) others, find these types of threads entertaining, thought-provoking (believe it or not, I actually try to see both sides of the coin... I just don't express it much) and utterly interesting.

Seriously, I should start counting how many times people've "informed" others of the "pointlessness" of this thread. It's nearing around 20 now? In any case, just GTFO AND STFU. No one's forcing you to look in the thread.

Now, as for my religious comrades, I've completely forgotten what to reply about.

Let me read the thread again.

My contribution to this topic will be this:

http://xs104.xs.to/xs104/06322/1154324019268.jpg

Mind you, don't click this at work.

PS: For all you christians claiming we atheists are so bad people, stop fucking up our world before you whine! This whole terrorism and middle east bullshit is all your fault.

Anyway, how about this one for promoting more discussion (as if Cryo's picture wasn't enough, eh, Kasperg?):

What about intelligent design?
To have creationism thought as a valid theory next to Darwin's evolution theory seems to me to be ludicrous. Promoters of I.D. (abbreviated for your convenience) attempt to play in the field of science - this is just impossible without any form of evidence.

Cryo, that post was just as childish as elof's first post.

Well I was thinking about it, we can always think of how something is done or how something happened. Or we wonder why thsi happened. We always get logical ideas of how these thigns happen.

But to be plain simple, nothing is never how you expect it when you experience it for yourself.

It happens all the time in science. Mythbusters for instance, they always do experiments where the outcome is totally different from what they initially expect.

You never get a full understanding of something until you perform experiments with it and take notes of the outcome and repeat it all over again.

you know, use the Scientific Method to prove your experiment.

Not mentioning any names, but recently someone said they were "leaving TWHL" because of these threads... OMG, just OMG.

I really dont care in the least what people talk about. These threads are good for getting to know fellow TWHLers beliefs and feelings without having to ask them directly.

Debates are always good, until you start mocking the other person after getting owned by their post

lol. Cryo, I don't see how Islamic terrorists are the fault of Christian TWHLers, but I'll let you have that one.

Zombieloffe: Intelligent design is just as valid as bigbang/evolution theory. The only problem people have with it is a subconsious relating of "intelligent design" with "God of Christianity." I'm sure lots of Christians would like God and Jesus taught in school, but under our current system they shouldn't be. But there is no more evidence for evolution or the Big Bang than there is for Intelligent Design.

Seriously, who can tell me where the energy came from to cause the big bang? Who can tell me where the singulatiry of matter that exploded came from? Who can tell me how the laws of physics were put into place? If you can tell me these things, I'll join YOUR church.

Then again, Big Bang is presented as a doubtable theory, in schools aswell. It's just the main thing scientists agree on, and that's why it's taught.
As for evolution, there actually is evidence. I mean... DNA and whatnot.

Religion isn't science and shouldn't "pretend" to be it. With science, you conduct tests, make a hypothesis, conduct more tests that verify or falsify it, summarize it, and then present it as evidence.
With religion, you make something up and make people believe it.

You see the difference?

Also, if the jewish-islamic-christian idea of a sole creator should be taught, as a theory, then why not every other theory that people spew out? The giant flying spaghetti monster, anyone?

Religion should be taught in schools. Children should at least be taught about the 5 major religions, what they stand for and what they believe in. But it shouldn't try to replace science.

I love science
Hooray for Physics Olympics... Indeed they should enlighten us about religion at school. But things are biased. But I feel that religions means nothing to you unless you've experienced it for yourself. Until then, you'll just think nothing of it and make your own opinions due to logic.

Religion is kind of like INsurance. Your don't know if something will happen, but you pay to reimburse for it afterwards.

Humans love the idea of Security. So i defintiely don't see it a bad thing.
And people.. still saying how its offending when people tell you you'll go to hell because you don't believe.

It's a lot more comforting to me to be better safe than sorry. I can still be as logical as the next person but I don't think because someone is religious makes them stupid.

Also, does anyone else find it at least a little bit strange on how complex the human body is? I mean.. millions and billions of electrical impulses. We can smell, taste, see, feel, and hear.

I just feel the parts of the world where man hasn't touched is too beautiful to just happen by chance and even the creation of the world.

This brings to mind..
what's the purpose of living?

Purpose is over-rated. Since when do you need purpose to live?

Also, does anyone else find it at least a little bit strange on how complex the human body is? I mean.. millions and billions of electrical impulses. We can smell, taste, see, feel, and hear.

So can most animals. Just because it's complex and aesthetically pleasing is in no way an inclination that there is a "higher being". The whole point of natural selection is that there is no chance - we are the way we are because the genes that made us this way survived.

Anyway, if you go by the "safe rather than sorry"-theory, what if "God" is Islamic and hates christians with passion? If so (Hell, ~13 000 000 00 people can't be entirely wrong?) you're still going to hell with eternal suffering and whatnot. So, you better convert.
Oh wait, unless he's jewish.

You see my point? There are literally hundreds (thousands? probably.) of religions out there, the majority of them claiming (I think, I have no proof whatsoever) that the other one's are wrong and THEIR god is the only god. The logical chance that you've picked the right one is pretty small.

Zombie, everything in existence has a reason. Even the concept of non-existence has a reason. It's impossible for something to exist without purpose.

That's just existential bullshit that really has no point.

You're right, religion is NOT science and shouldn't be presented as such. However, science and Christianty are not exclusive of eachother. I'm not so sure aobut other religions, but I know that the bible refers to God creating the laws of the universe and even things like atoms.

Here in america, the Big Bang and Evolution (from one common ancestor in the primordial soup) are taught as THE LAW. However doubtable they are known to be to REAL scientists, we are being taught this in school and kids still are, I work at a school and I have seen the books. The problem is that the THEORY of evolution and the THEORY of the Big Bang is being taught like an absolute law and there is no other mention of other theories.

With Science, all we do is have faith that the scientists haev done the experiment properly and that they are represnting the following data truthfully. Just as much faith as it takes to beleive that a pastor is teaching a TRUE book that has been represnted truly after all these years.

I'm not so sure aobut other religions, but I know that the bible refers to God creating the laws of the universe and even things like atoms.

Citation for the big win?

The problem is that the THEORY of evolution and the THEORY of the Big Bang is being taught like an absolute law and there is no other mention of other theories.

That is indeed a shame. But then again, if everything had to be proven as an absolute fact by some non-existing laws of evidence, we'd have to type THEORY over every single paragraph in every non-fictional book.
But yeah, I see your point.

Anyway, the Bible (old one) as I see it was just a collection of old customs and folk tales, with some genesis-fable thrown in. Not a holy book.

Intelligent design is only as valid as evolution if you are a relitivist who would give the same credence to intelligent falling as the theory of gravity

Bible References:
The bible refers to Atoms: Hebrews 11:3 one translation says By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Says that the earth floats in space: Job 26:7 says
[i]He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;

he suspends the earth over nothing. [/i]

Swedish Han sp?nner ut himlen ?ver tomma intet och h?nger upp jorden p? ingenting.

I can't find the exact verses about the laws, but it talks about "ordinances set forth" that make the moon and the sun shine when they do and something about the tides...

Zombieloffe, you just agreed with me that NOTHING is really proven and never really can be. So what makes religion so ridiculous where faith in the Big Bang is not?

Jobabob, Your example is not applicable for a number of reasons:
1. Nobody ever claimed "intelligent falling" was a real thing
2. Gravity is supposed to have been created with the REST of the universe, not created spontaeously for every instance in which something falls.
3. Although falling is an effect of gravity, falling is not gravity and therefore "intelligent falling" is not even an antithesis of gravity.

I remember that verse about atoms.

But I've talked to my dad about religion. He's a preacher and he agrees that religion is man made. That no man should have to tell another of God because God has already put himself in all of us and that its up to a man to believe or not.

I know for one that my life has gone downhill ever since I stopped praying to God.

Anyway, if you go by the "safe rather than sorry"-theory, what if "God" is Islamic and hates christians with passion? If so (Hell, ~13 000 000 00 people can't be entirely wrong?) you're still going to hell with eternal suffering and whatnot. So, you better convert.
Oh wait, unless he's jewish.

what? In the bible it says that "God gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life"

The only thing that is required of you to enter the kingdom of heaven is to believe in God.

And thanks to nickelplate, for enlightening me, your talking about the same God.

Why waste time arguing about something you can't change? Go get a job so you can buy candy. Duh

Zombieloffe, you just agreed with me that NOTHING is really proven and never really can be. So what makes religion so ridiculous where faith in the Big Bang is not?

Well, for one, that Big Bang is logically presented by hundreds of thousands of scientists all over the world. Just the fact that everything in the universe is moving outwards from one point is enough for me to assume that it was all one piece at some point. Yes, it is just a theory - but unlike religion, there actually is some proof that something like big bang happened, or that we evolve, or that the world isn't 6000 years old.

what? In the bible it says that "God gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life"

Ok, what if there isn't one god, but thousands, like the Hinduism faith says?
I mean, how can you not see my point?

VOX: That's one.

ARGHHHHHH

People HAVE claimed intelligent falling in the same sense that people have claimed that a giant spaghetti monster created the universe, you cannot disprove it because there are thousands of sites that make this 'alternative theory' clear.

Gravity is not in the fucking bible, shut up! Just because falling is in the title theory of 'inteligent falling' doesnt mean it isnt a theory about gravity! You are not a fucking scientist or a philosopher so stop using big words to try and sound clever, you aren't!

You are starting to make my blood boil again with your hypocritical and cyclical arguments. Somebody close this thread before I start getting really offensive. I hate the internet

VOX: Sounds good to me!

Zombieloffe: I see your point. However, the expansion of the universe is only proof of a beginning, and that is just proof that the universe is not infinite like science previously beleived. Proof of a sudden beginning meshes with the Bible very well.
Really, only certain people think the world is 6000 years old. In genesis when it talks about "days" that god created things in, why would they talk using EARTH days when the "heavens" are being created in the same time period? Most ppl think that the "day" in genesis is lots more than one day.
Zombie, the bible actually says that there are lots and lots of gods but that they have no power. Only capital G God has power and needs to be acknowledged. Because all the other gods are made by man.

Jobabob, I want you to point out WHAT in any of my posts is "hypocritical and cyclical." Point them out. Show me what they are. Really, I don't think you can, because there is nothing to point out. You can get as offensive as you want, but the truth is, you're just being defensive because you CAN'T find anything wrong with what I'm saying. Are YOU a scientist? a philosopher? Show me your truths and support them with proof and I'll join your church.

Zombie, the bible actually says that there are lots and lots of gods but that they have no power. Only capital G God has power and needs to be acknowledged. Because all the other gods are made by man.

So basically you're saying that all religions that don't believe in God (the christian-jew-muslim god) are wrong? Well, what if some smaller religion says Christianity is just man-made sillyness and should be ignored? It's always just word-against-word-against-vague-perceptions-of-a-4000-year-old-book, whilst "science" as it is, atleast tries to prove, explain and discuss the things around us.

About the bible, I really doubt (again, no proof) it's anything like it was when it was first written in hebrew (what, 4000 years ago?). Not only has it gone through hundreds of translations and transliterations, but it's been under the strict control of the vatican, not only during the dark ages but today aswell.

Besides, it's just a book. Not holy proof of god.

Really, only certain people think the world is 6000 years old.

I read in a newspaper survey somewhere that more than 40% of all americans believe the Earth was created like it says in the Genesis books, 5 or 6000 years ago. Of course, it might not be true, and I'm not presenting it as absolute truth. Newspaper in question.

Im not a philosopher or much of a scientist, but I know when people are talking bullshit to try and sound like they know a lot more than they do. Its something I've come to hate about all internet forums and you exemplify it, I can't even be bothered to argue with the nonsense you post its a waste of the durability of my keyboard.

jobabob....

You can not detect bs without a frame of reference, and, knowing that you are extremely against the idea of a god, your bs detector is probably clouded.

So what if you hate religion, if you do not plan to have a discussion about it, then don't bother to post here. Stop flaming, and stop acting superior.

I dont hate religion! I just believe in the principles of the scientific method. Saying things like 'nothing can be proven' is a sad relitivist/agnostic argument and it really annoys me, this exact same thread comes up every month and goes nowhere. I'm not acting superior because I know fuck all myself and thus dont try to even make up an attempt to sound clever.

Someone asked what our purpose is. Our pupros as humans is to become self-sufficiant, and to reproduce. So, next time your parents tell you "no sex!" just yell back "It's my purpose in life!" That and eating candy

or both at the same time!

There's nothing wrong with sounding clever
This thread started off on the wrong foot from the beginning.
It was destined for people to get pissed off.
People trying to defend their religious beliefs and so on.

I still love all of you though.

Perhaps we can actually start a thread for simple discussion, and not bent around on saying people are sad because of this and that. If your happy and you know it clap your hands. >.> hahah that reminds me of being a preacher

ok, i'll start one saying that hizbollah is better than israel, that should be a lively and informative debate

if you're happy and you know it double leg! - my version

(double leg is a 360 outside crescent kick with both legs)

Jobabob, I think it is true that "nothing can be proven." Technically, it IS true. Nothing wrong with saying it.

I don't know if you hate religion, or if we even need to bother with saying "religion," when we know it's Christianity that is up for debate. Part of the job of Christians is to be caring, loving people who can answer all the questions that are thrown their way... Unfortunaately in the 2000 years they've been around, they've done a piss-poor job. I can understand why you would think badly of all of us for that. But I don't understand why when a Christian is really answering questiosn seriously and logically, you have to tell him he's stupid and he's just "trying to sound superior."

Not everything can be proven is a more accurate sentence. If you add two bananas you have 2 bananas. I will prove to you that that is true by bringing two bananas to your house.

I have no problem with religion, it might help many people, and I don't mean the corrupted ones who use religion to use people and get power.(example: the inquisitors)

I my self don't believe cause I just hate the monotoistic god and what the bible stands for. It seems that the most important law in it is to be loyal and obidient to god, nothing else is more important. If a god punishes a king for showing mercy and not slaughtering an entire tribe with indiffrence to sex and age, just wiping it from the face of the earth, then I cannot follow such a cruel god. A revenge on a child's blood is something even the devil didn't think of.

Thats the main reason I do not follow such a god. Before anybody even tries to object and say that the deed that I mentioned never happened, stop and if he'll check the jewish bible, he'll find that the king I talk about is the first jewish king, and that this genocide did happan and the punishment was that that king was the first and last one from his line, and in his place the 'good' king david rose. David did even more notorious deeds then his predicesor, and he didn't show such mercy as the other, he cold blooded murdured somebody because he wanted to marry his wife. His line continued onward and when it was broken it wasn't because of him, his name passed on as a name of a saint with no sins and when he was mentioned it was usally as 'god's loyal subject'.

That kind of a religion I cannot follow. And since the other two are based on the first, I shall never believe in them too, although that the islamic religion has many laws I like. One of their five most important laws in charaty.

hizbollah is better than israel

Za lies! ZA LIES!!!

Nothing can be proven EXCEPT for pure mathematical principles. This is the fundamental basis of all science, obviously. If you are never willing to accept any non mathematical principle because it cannot be 'proven' then you are a relitivist, someone who essentially rejects the scientific method. With the above in mind, stop arguing about such a silly concept.

Religion is just a belief in the supernatural to me, as the supernatural has little or no evidence for it, I cannot prove it with my scientific beliefs, thus I reject it. I guess I'm very hardline when it comes to anything supernatural, maybe I need a vision or something. Stop saying I hate Christians, I don't HATE Christians, I hate fundamental ideologies and when that ideology enroaches on what I believe is the evolution of the human condition and a human right (e.g. homosexuality)

You aren't answering a question logically (and STOP MENTIONING CHRISTIANITY IT ISNT THAT), you are posing rediculous counter-arguments that waste my time answering and annoy me. Everything i'm saying is coming from things I know, not things I make up to try and sound clever.

VOX: Plz bring Bananas. Also, some philsophers will tell you that those bananas may not really exist or that you are living in a dream of reality or some other stuff, so really, even bananas cannot be proven. I don't think I beleive in all that, per se. All the same, bring them to my house and we shall eat of them.

Jobabob, I agree that in our world Mathematics can be proven. I'm not a relitivist, really, but my point before was that if there is no proof for science and no proof for God, aren't both on equal footing? With the exception of the fact that science APPEARS to be proveable whereas God offers NO irrefutable proof. I suppose people are satisfied with the illusion of truth.

I know that science and religion don't mix as a general rule. But to narrow it down, Science and Christianity do agree and science even proves much of what was previously questionable in the bible. Whether you think it's some sacred text or not, it is more and more becoming a proven historical text.

I agree that "the supernatural" sounds like a bunch of cack, and perhaps it is. But I think all the stuff with God proves to be different from "ghosts" and "hauntings" and all that rubbish.

I never said that you hated Christians (even if you did you could never admit it, because you think thier main iniquity is the 'hating' of homosexuals). I do agree with you that it IS a human right to love and be attracted to and have sex with whoever and whatever you want, but as evidenced by pedophilia, what is within your rights is not always right. And just because it doesn't seem to be harming anything now, doesn't mean it might not turn out to later.

I'm not just making stuff up out of the air, It is "things I know" just like what you write from. I know logic, science, fairly advanced math, and just about anything else they can teach us in school and in 4 years of university study. Just because i spend my sabbath in church, doesn't mean I spend the rest of my week isolating myself.

I guess I want to say:
1. I'm not just making stuff up
2. I'm not doing anything to sound clever
3. You're not the only person on earth that knows things
4. My beleif in God doesn't keep me from knowing things and from learning the scientific way
5. Islam is bad for the economy

You forgot 6. Bananas are the best of all the long shaped fruit.

Finally a post I agree with, In a way I lump religion and science as two seperate things in the same way when completely unproveable concepts like the creation of the universe are concerned, you believe in one or the other. Though surely you believe SOME scientific principles though, e.g. gravity, so they aren't totally seperate. You could easily believe all of science but that in the end God is involved in some way, or just that he started it all off.

The word 'proof' is also a little flaky, the only 'proof' to use the definition of the term, of god and most of the bible is the bible itself, whereas science works upon clear observation and experimentation. Science has many methods at its disposal to provide proof whereas proof of religion only comes from hyperanalysing (probably a word) a single tome, which is surely literary suicide were any other book concerned.

Belief is a funny thing, you outright reject the idea of supernatural phenomena like ghosts, yet surely following the miracles of our Lord you believe he came back from the dead and walked on water!

5. Islam is bad for the economy

Oh boy, I'd like to hear your explanation to that one. If it's as simple as "all islamic countries are poor", you're a tool.

Yeah, I know what you mean jobabob, I also agree with vox's latest post!

5. Islam is bad for the economy

Surely its GOOD for the economy because america puts such a rediculous sum of money into its defence budget, if you don't have a war every few years all those bombs will go to waste

I wrote a big post and lost it... So anyway, pretty much what I said is that I don't mind answering questions as long as they're serious questions. I'm really glad for the break in your sarcasm.

You can discuss religion, but you cannot argue about religion. Everyone can choose whether to believe or not. You can't force non-believers to become believers, or vice versa. It totally depends on the person's point of view and really cannot be changed by someone other, than the person himself.

That's, why pushing your opinion, or saying, that all believers are dumb is the same as saying, that all the people, who don't like chocolate ice-cream are idiots. It totally depends on your opinion and everyone knows, that you really can't argue with that.

surely you can force non-believers to become believers, or there wouldnt be any..

Changing someones POV over the internet, through a forum, now THATS unlikely.

I agree that people who dont like chocolate ice-cream are idiots, it is the best ice cream AND THATS A FACT.

5. Islam is bad for the economy

Thats just one of the stupidest things I ever heard in all my life! Islam isn't bad for the economy. Just because some nations today has a better economy then the islamic ones doesn't say a thing. The islamic world once had a time of great prosperity. It after mohmet, while Europe was inhabitted by the many tribes that ruined the roman empire, in the time when Europe was in it's darker days.
In those dark days the Islamic rule was the biggest and ruled over most of the world. It ruled the middle east, turkey, north africa and even big parts from spain.

You see, islam isn't bad, you just have too much prejudice against it.

Changing someones POV over the internet, through a forum, now THATS unlikely.

Exactly.. If you can't beat them with a 2x4 via the interwebs, what's the point?

And chocolate ice-cream is good.

Elon, That was ancient economy that was ruled by takeovers and intolerance... do you REALLY want that today???