TWHL's death? Created 15 years ago2009-04-29 20:37:11 UTC by Notewell

Everyone on this site is an asshole, including Ant, Penguinboy, Kasperg and you, the person reading this. You suck, and I hate you.

This statement didn't hold true for me.

amirite

This statement didn't hold true for me.

You're right. You're a shithole.

Man, this threads bringing all the old dogs back, ain't it?

Thats another one. Where did SlayerA go? He seemed to disappear before I got back.

Haha, this thread is great. Kasperg even made a comeback, and he's as arrogant as ever.

Note to everyone: If you ask for criticism, don't expect to be hearing good things about your map. Critics are basically there to point out bad stuff. For a greatly over-exaggerated example of this, see Zero Punctuation.

Everyone on this site is an asshole, including Ant, Penguinboy, Kasperg and you, the person reading this. You suck, and I hate you.

Where am i in that list?

you, the person reading this. You suck, and I hate you.

That's where you fit in to that list.

Someone should convince rowleybob to come back, as the reason he ragequit is gone now.

You're above and beyond the asshole.
Edit: Jeff, go ninja someone else's post.

It was an accident, I swear!

Me.GoingNoWhere = True

YAY!

Someone should convince rowleybob to come back, as the reason he ragequit is gone now.

Doesn't matter, he stopped mapping years ago.

This thread is becoming increasingly awesome.

Strider started to delete my shoutbox comments and that kind of kiddy retarded behaviour was something I wasn't going to have. Little jelous kids taking over the site was probably the start of its downfall.

I have to say, I simply love how you come back to imply I'm like a little kid, but also proceed to call me retarded. Bravo, excellent work.

For the record, I deleted one comment because that particular 'arguement' was done and dusted. I told everyone to stop because opinions are opinions.

About the media for The Citizen Part 2, wait to play the mod until you have anything to say about its quality. And once you've played it, wait and make your own better HL2 mod to have any authority to criticize.

Reminds me of the time you said that simply because you think it's better than most of the maps in the mapvault, it deserved a higher rating. The point wasn't to compare your work with others, it was to critique your work. A point you still seem to fail to realise this far on. I happen to share the opinion that the media is unimpressive, and you can't take away my opinion. And about that "You do better!" bullshit, just.. haha, Urby nailed it.

or is someone snitching for you?

For him and Nickelplate it seems. Fun times.

Kasperg.... words can not describe how utterly pointless that post was.

And utterly useless, retarded ect ect.

NO ONE ANSWERED ME!!!... Or is it just that no one knows where SlayerA went?

He still pops in from time to time. Zero activity though. :<

Wheres simehong2000?

I won't be convinced unless he posts in this thread like all the other old regulars.

Was he ever active after 2005 anyways? ..and what makes an old regular in the first place?

He wasn't, FresheD. Made no more than 10 posts since.
He does log in once in every week or so.

Maybe he will see this thread and his name and will post back

For the record, I deleted one comment because that particular 'arguement' was done and dusted. I told everyone to stop because opinions are opinions.

Then I apologize Strider. I just remembered you typing something like "You REALLY can't talk" in the shoutbox, as if gloating over the fact that your newly acquired moderator powers let you delete any comment that didn't please you (in that case, it contained no insults. It was something like "And others seem to be insulting, but since they're moderators it's fine with you").

The topic about your power to criticize is really very simple. Anyone can talk, anyone can have an opinion on something. But unless you've actually done the same thing, know what this or that needed to be made, you're not really an authority on the subject. Period. I can talk all I want about how I didn't like this or that about Terminator 3, but since I've never made a film, and much less one of that scope, I have NO authority to speak, and my comments (although some might be true) can be ignored by the filmmakers. I don't know more than them. They are probably more aware of the mistakes and know exactly we they came out like that. Sometimes wrong decisions are spotted too late and something has to be worked out.
Same thing goes with maps. You might know how to make a room and compile it lights and props, but until you make a 16 map mod in 8 months for everyone to play for free, you really don't have any authority to disrespect it or its authors. It's not something you paid for and were cheated with.

If you've played v 1.1 of The Citizen, a lot of the changes suggested by Strider, Ant etc were taken into account and the mod improved. But I guess that really wasn't the intention back then. It was just some burst of frustration and envy by some individuals, which is understandable.

You can keep calling people names (I'm sorry I did in my last post), but it won't change anything. I think I had more than 50 maps a few years ago, and a lot of members of this site had a great part in how they turned out. Be it comments on the MV, comments on screenshots and even playtesting in Muzz's server. Only a few (coincidentally of Australian majority?) people seemed extra edgy and frustrated when commenting on my work. Even more so when some of their purely subjective suggestions were discarded by me or other users (arrogance can exist even without talent, it seems!).
So bla bla bla all you want. It won't change the fact that this site isn't even a quarter of what it was back then. And the biggest change to the site were you guys taking over. Enjoy it, and try not to be too affected by my comments, which I'm sure you'll find it very hard.

Please come back? We're having a new compo..

Upcoming exams and two lenghty HL2SP mods in progress. Can't do

So where do you mainly update "The Citizen 2"? modDB? How's Playbus?

Habboi, we mainly update our god-awful upcoming mod in Moddb
http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-citizen-part-ii/

But Planetphillip sometimes gets exclusive screenshots.
http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/the-citizen-2-pre-release-half-life-2/

Playbus is fine, finishing a very original and interesting mod with a surreal theme. But you won't see him ever coming back here from what I know.

You might know how to make a room and compile it lights and props, but until you make a 16 map mod in 8 months for everyone to play for free, you really don't have any authority to disrespect it or its authors. It's not something you paid for and were cheated with.

In the face #2.

Kasperg, your superiority complex is actually melting my monitor, and this is coming from someone who liked The Citizen and indeed many of your other releases.

Of course developers need to listen to community input. The critisism that comes from everyday gamers is far, far more important than critisism from other people who have made something similar. Why do you think Valve constantly update and tweak their games in response to what the players tell them? Gabe Newell himself actually invites them to do so in every single audio commentary.

And look what happens when film makers ignore the fans. You get Star Wars: The Crappy Prequels and Indiana Jones and the Bullshit Ending.

And even if you were correct, which you're most definately not, your entire argument is left null and void by the fact that you keep on saying that people who critique you are only doing so because they're jealous. (Note the "a" in that word, by the way.)
That's like something the school councelor tells the fat kid who gets bullied. The big, strong, popular kids are just calling you fat because they're jealous of you.

You mentioned Trapt, and understandably, because the man is a complete fuckstain. The fact is, though, when it comes to level design he knows exactly what he's talking about and when you read past his utterly twattish manner he actually has some genuinely helpful advice.

Releasing a large-scale mod like you did is no easy task, but it does not give you the right to look down and act like an asshole to the people who haven't, because at the end of the day, those are the people you're trying to please and those are definately the people you should be listening to.

I just stopped writing alot because everyone seems to ignore me.. don't know why either but whatever.

I have NO authority to speak

You sure as hell do. Expressing your opinion and discussing it is what communities are all about. In TWHL's case, expressing an opinion on any MV submission is not only authorised, but highly encouraged.

and my comments (although some might be true) can be ignored by the filmmakers

Ignore comments? Like you failed to do?

Come on, in the past weeks all I could read on Twhl was about swine flu and death. Could we get a little bit more optimistic please ?

Huntey, I'm overacting it to give them at least some reason to call me "arrogant". It's no fun if their arguments are flawed from the start.

You mentioned Trapt, and understandably, because the man is a complete fuckstain. The fact is, though, when it comes to level design he knows exactly what he's talking about and when you read past his utterly twattish manner he actually has some genuinely helpful advice.

Of which I have a few examples, the ones directed to me of course.

Looks terrible. Edit: no, that is not sarcastic.

Textures clash terribly and look seemingly random.
Lighting is boring. Really really boring.
Propwork is just poop.

No one said the brushwork is poop. BUT THE LIGHTING IS EXTREMELY BAD!

I know what you may think is good is different to my ideas, but whatever. I'm sure most people agree with me more than you.

I don't care much for your ... maps in general.

I could go on. Those were always so helpful and showed that he really knew what he was talking about. Hehehe.

The big, strong, popular kids are just calling you fat because they're jealous of you.

No...It'd be something like "The kids who can't paint crap are saying your drawings suck because they are jealous of you." (Which anyone who has been to school knows that's the way it usually happens).

Releasing a large-scale mod like you did is no easy task, but it does not give you the right to look down and act like an asshole to the people who haven't, because at the end of the day, those are the people you're trying to please and those are definately the people you should be listening to.

I think this is where the main problem arises. People thinking that amateur level designers owe them something or are trying to please THEM. Working months or even years to please those people even ABOVE themselves? And all of that FOR FREE?. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous!! It's such a flawed concept, and I can't imagine why you'd even propose it. I'm really astonished (maybe because in my first 3 years of mapping, I didn't share the maps with anyone. I made them because I enjoyed it). Pleasing the fans?? In exchange for what exactly? We get nothing from those who get hours of fun (or not that much fun) from us for free.
You really need to start seeing reality. Valve /= mappers who map for fun. I don't care if the tools are the same, the community that plays the maps is the same. Whatever. Level designers who do this out of their own free will and free time owe NOTHING to the rest of the world. Not quality, not expertly tested gameplay, not lenght. Absolutely nothing. Anything you get to experience from a small DM map or a big SP mod is 100% a gift from the makers. You want to help them with your input? Fine, as long as it's polite and you're willing to accept they might not be up to it/had noticed those flaws/have no intention on spending more time on the same maps/mod.
Sometimes the makers release their work when they feel to. They aren't tied by what others wish. And they release it with the amount of quality or content that they think neccessary, are able to do, or are willing to do (all maps can be perfected, but not all maps deserve the time needed for it).

Ignore comments? Like you failed to do?

I don't understand what this means. But it's clear that what can't really be dealt with here is counter-criticism. Some people can't accept being wrong when reviewing and pointing out possible flaws, thinking that the fact that they're in the receiving end gives them a power and knowledge that is unquestionnable and deserves more respect than maps or mods themselves. I didn't agree with that and still don't.
Once again: In life, you can talk all you want about anything you want. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to have something you're the author of to have any authority to talk directly to authors of other stuff in a disrespectful and patronizing tone. Otherwise, your comments have no power to them, nothing to back them up, and fall into the deep bag of "I can't do what this guy does, but I must find some flaw", which as I said is derived from jealousy. I'm talking about the ill intended type of comments, not the technical specific comments that adress real issues (can you find any of those in Trapts comments I quoted or I missed when quoting?) or the "I liked this and that, but this other thing could be improved by doing this" that should accompany any real review that is trying to be both thankful and helpful.

Drama.

Come on, in the past weeks all I could read on Twhl was about swine flu and death. Could we get a little bit more optimistic please ?

Shall we discuss the upcoming squirrel flu outbreak? Sounds like a pretty optimistic subject to me.

And to Kasperg, I was once proud of my old maps and didn't like the criticism on them. However, I have since come to realize their inferior quality and would never make the same mistakes again. I also have a CS Source map I have put months and months of work into. I'm quite fond of it, but I do expect criticism as well as some people to trash it, simply because there are better mappers than me out there - some of which have do a superiority complex. Just something you have to live with.

tl;dr

OK but kasperg has got a point. And Huntey too. Stop fighting. You're grown up now. I should be fighting, not you.

I always took criticism when needed, and discarded it when it wasn't going to help my maps by MY point of view. Me being of course, the #1 person who should be pleased with the final result. Any mapper who maps for the fans above themselves is either lying or is a complete ass and is wasting his time pathetically. I'm sorry to be so direct, but that's my personal view on that.
I think the surge of so many custom maps and mods for the HL series (a lot of them being as good or better than the retail content) created a legion of pampered players who all of a sudden deserved quality work and the strict meeting of standards from those altruist level designers and had the authority to criticize and mock the works in question, as if releasing a map was automatically making it a contestant for some stupid competion to see if "his is bigger than yours!". Quite stupid, and defies all the basic premises of what mapping was for me. 1)A pass-time for my enjoyment 2)A creative and learning process in which experience made the following work better 3)A way to keep the games I liked alive by sharing the maps with a community and providing people with free fun, just as I got from theirs.
The moment you think maps and mods are commercial products just like films and retail games, you've failed and killed the community. It happened in Snark Pit, it happened or will happen here. All this has happened, and will happen again. Drive away those who are learning, attack those who are still releasing stuff. Great job!

Why would you let some random inconsistently expressed opinion insult you then? Heck, what Trapt said is not even on the MV page, rendering it as meaningless as you want it to be. Making that a big deal of something that small and ragequitting is beyond me.
Also, the way I see it, the majority gave you constructive criticism/positive feedback in the first place (see MV page/MotM reviews).

Any mapper who maps for the fans above themselves is either lying or is a complete ass and is wasting his time pathetically.

What a pathetic timewaste of an ass I am then. I mean really. Making a map/mod for the players?! Why, tis' the silliest thing I've ever heard!

What a pathetic timewaste of an ass I am then.

No, you're lying
Honestly, if you change a texture theme you find pretty (or actually motivated you to make a map) to something you find ugly just because "your fans" want it that way then yes, you'd probably be an ass and be wasting your time pathetically, searching not for the enjoyment of your work and your results, but instead the pat on the back of a small Internet community. I hope you're not like that.
Of course, the starting point is that YOU are also a player, and you like the kind of gameplay and visuals you're making, validating what you're doing. 100.000 people who never get to play your map might agree. But you'd change it for those 20 who don't? Really?
Let's be clear. Likes and dislikes, different opinions regarding games/films/books are a dime a dozen. So starting with the fact that you'll never please everyone at the same time, who would you side with? You'd choose those who dislike what you're doing over yourself and those who do like it? (mind you, you're not selling anything to a target demographic) Is the need of fame and recognizition in a couple of obscure videogame sites as strong as to make you go against your creative ideas, gameplay preferences etc?
I'm amazed, I really am

I'm not talking about changing your work according to the opinion of 3(?) people who disliked it. Fact of the matter is, most people actually enjoyed The Citizen. The MV rating of TC is a straight 5* for a reason. An 81% rating in MotM backed up with 4 long & detailed reviews is negative? I don't think so.

You quit a community that once highly respected you for the negative opinion of three people on a single piece of your work. What the fuck?

No, I quit a community in which a moderator decided to mock me by deleting/silencing my posts.
If that was where the community was heading, it's a train no-one would force me to take. That was the only reason I left. The other stuff had been going on for a long time and everyone coped with it just fine.

And I repeat, v 1.1 of The Citizen took the feedback from all the sites it was posted in (including twhl) to be a better experience. Playbus left for other reasons, by the way.

STOP

Daubster, Kasperg, Hunter, PenguinBoy, etc ...
The only reason is that you're too proud of yourselves.

I mean, look at me. I take a lot of criticism and everyday I see lines like "you fail".
Ok, bad example, I'm not such a noob anymore.

Hm.... look at yodalman ! He's being bombarded by almost all of TWHL members with lines like gtfo, you fail, "I would like to format you out of existence" , maybe even swears ...
He still comes to TWHL. He still posts.

Age ? Heh, actualy I think the youngest members would get upset and leave TWHL faster when being hit by a lot of insults.

Or take an example from rock solid members, like Luke ( altough I think he's a german ... germans are tuff :D).

Luke, you SUCK !

Daubster, I wasn't really speaking of The Citizen in these posts, but actually of dm_suspended (http://www.snarkpit.net/index.php?s=maps&game=2&mod=23&map=2727), with which a few people were unable see when their criticism or suggestions weren't being helpful and was time to let go. By the way, I never got any of those "lighting is crap" "needs moar propz" "textures are poop and ugly" amazing feedback in the other sites it was submitted to. Weird, huh?

I quit a community in which a moderator decided to mock me by deleting/silencing my posts.

Wasn't he just trying to stop the then-out of hand argument? Knowing Strider to some extent, I highly doubt he'd have deleted a post of yours just because he was unable to retort.

Furthermore, having a single shoutbox post of yours deleted is enough reason to quit?

Alongside a "Kasperg, you REALLY CAN'T talk" comment, more than enough. And it was more than a post. Otherwise I'd seen it as a browser error. But I insisted, and found Strider's little game. Which I wasn't and I'm not going to play.
When someone puts tape over your mouth in a meeting, I bet you'd leave the room too. It's just a guess.

God bless Seventh Monkey. :'(

7th Monkey? Far from unbiased as well. I remember him deleting quit a few of my comments because they were too far right-of-center for his tastes. I didn't leave over that, however.

Well yeah, no-one likes the feeling, really.

Meh, I say give the whole I QUIT!1 thing a rest already. You're practically back to being an active member anyway.

In all honesty, I really try to understand your views but I couldn't help but to disagree with most points you have writtin'. I won't go into it too deep but I couldn't help but wonder why the hell you even put all that effort in these damn long posts of yours? How the hell did you came into this discussion in the first place? But most importantly, why the fuck do you care?

The one main contradiction on which it all comes back is very simple; you disagree with the way and who gave critical response to your maps, and therefore you don't value them and don't care. Yet, you seem quite upset about those few responses (since most people have praised you here) as if they caused some sort of personal trauma. Do they hurt your feelings or what? I would seriously advise, and this might come across very rude, to just fucking grow up and deal with it. I mean.. damn.

I agree with both sides (I'm so damn diplomatic :D), it's your work - you choose what criticism to listen to and which to ignore and you have all the right to do that. I would also agree that people should go easier on free amateur projects and generally be nicer (but hey, it's the internet).

Although, you have to be able to express your opinion. You also have to be able to take criticism and ignore it without getting defensive, however - failing to do so does make you sound arrogant.
"Your opinion? Young man, I am the better mapper. You don't have the authority to have an opinion, and if you don't like my work you are jealous." Well no, they just don't like it. It's their opinion and yours is not better then theirs - but you don't have to care.

If players like it they will say so. If they don't, well, then they just didn't think it was that great - if you didn't do it to please them, who cares?