Forum posts
Hey everybody. I have definitely found somebody who is taking the job. I want to thank those of you who were actually helpful. Thanks.
Disco,
You said, "fair use is only ever valid if the works are not used to gain profit." That is actually not true at all. Not at all whatsoever! I mean no offense but you obviously don't know anything about fair use laws. I'm assuming you do not live in the U.S. - we have very specific fair use laws that are very different from your understanding.
Now, you have no reason to be rude to me. You suggest that I "get down to business." This is a legitimate business offer - not a plead. I can't get down to business without a consultant to do business with. If you think I have been unclear with any of my answers - let me know which ones and I would be happy to give you a more clear response.
You said, "fair use is only ever valid if the works are not used to gain profit." That is actually not true at all. Not at all whatsoever! I mean no offense but you obviously don't know anything about fair use laws. I'm assuming you do not live in the U.S. - we have very specific fair use laws that are very different from your understanding.
Now, you have no reason to be rude to me. You suggest that I "get down to business." This is a legitimate business offer - not a plead. I can't get down to business without a consultant to do business with. If you think I have been unclear with any of my answers - let me know which ones and I would be happy to give you a more clear response.
Hotdog,
-I never said Red vs Blue had permission. I am aware Bungie had no idea at first. They did eventually find out though. Bungie gave them all the contents of Halo Reach before the game was even out so they could use it in their machinimation.
-If Riot tried to sue Machinima it’s not as simple as “bam, lawsuit.” That would be passing the entire courtcase. Obviously Machinima’s legal team would argue for fair use and the courts would have to look at the case and evaluate it based on the four factors and then look at related court cases and the decisions that were made. The four factors would be very important to know to really understand the basis of my argument.
-Let me know if Riot responds to your email. I am very interested to know if they respond.
-Also, let me know if Machinima responds. I doubt they will but if they do I would be interested in how the secretary who knows nothing about what is in production would respond.
-Once you clear all this up, I look forward to working with you.
-I never said Red vs Blue had permission. I am aware Bungie had no idea at first. They did eventually find out though. Bungie gave them all the contents of Halo Reach before the game was even out so they could use it in their machinimation.
-If Riot tried to sue Machinima it’s not as simple as “bam, lawsuit.” That would be passing the entire courtcase. Obviously Machinima’s legal team would argue for fair use and the courts would have to look at the case and evaluate it based on the four factors and then look at related court cases and the decisions that were made. The four factors would be very important to know to really understand the basis of my argument.
-Let me know if Riot responds to your email. I am very interested to know if they respond.
-Also, let me know if Machinima responds. I doubt they will but if they do I would be interested in how the secretary who knows nothing about what is in production would respond.
-Once you clear all this up, I look forward to working with you.
NineTnine – lol. But why would somebody want to become a part of a community with such negativity?
Hotdog – How would the respond? That would be interesting to find out. My guess would be that they would respond . . . “okay??? . . . . ???? . . . . why are you telling us this?”
Tetsu – thanks for the honesty – it is much appreciated. I asked my boss and he didn’t think this project was important enough to utilize the entire ladders to get permission. That doesn’t mean I can’t try to get permission myself though. If I get permission, I will come and find you.
Hotdog – How would the respond? That would be interesting to find out. My guess would be that they would respond . . . “okay??? . . . . ???? . . . . why are you telling us this?”
Tetsu – thanks for the honesty – it is much appreciated. I asked my boss and he didn’t think this project was important enough to utilize the entire ladders to get permission. That doesn’t mean I can’t try to get permission myself though. If I get permission, I will come and find you.
Rufee,
Archie is right in that in the “US” there is a fair use policy. Yes there is such a thing. He is wrong that it “only covers news, promotion, reviews, and . . . non-profit.” Fair use policy covers a heck of a lot more than that.
What I am looking for is somebody that would say, “I will do this for you if you can prove (a) its okay, (b) you have permission, or (3) it will be untraceable.” So far, I have spent days on here and I don’t even know if anybody can do this.
I am enjoying the conversation with you all but I do have a job to get too.
Archie is right in that in the “US” there is a fair use policy. Yes there is such a thing. He is wrong that it “only covers news, promotion, reviews, and . . . non-profit.” Fair use policy covers a heck of a lot more than that.
What I am looking for is somebody that would say, “I will do this for you if you can prove (a) its okay, (b) you have permission, or (3) it will be untraceable.” So far, I have spent days on here and I don’t even know if anybody can do this.
I am enjoying the conversation with you all but I do have a job to get too.
Penguin and Tetsu,
The thing is Riot is already aware that Machinima has broken every single one of those license limitations multiple times and have told us they are okay with it.
Getting approval is a much longer process since both ladders are involved and Machinima simply thinks that spending a couple hundred bucks is easier than going through the process.
Tetsu, would you be able to complete this project? I have obviously failed at finding what I need because of all the legal fear. If Machinima did feel this project was worth getting permission and then went and got it – could you do it?
The thing is Riot is already aware that Machinima has broken every single one of those license limitations multiple times and have told us they are okay with it.
Getting approval is a much longer process since both ladders are involved and Machinima simply thinks that spending a couple hundred bucks is easier than going through the process.
Tetsu, would you be able to complete this project? I have obviously failed at finding what I need because of all the legal fear. If Machinima did feel this project was worth getting permission and then went and got it – could you do it?
LaVolpe,
That is actually a really good argument about Napster being out longer. I’m not positive but I think Napster lasted for no more than 2 years while Machinimation has been around for 3-4 years at least. Additionally, it was very clear from the beginning that music artists were (almost entirely) united in their stance against Napster and sharing music whearas video game companies tend to all enjoy machinimation. Lastly, it was Napster who was killed legally when Big Music took it to court, not the person ripping the music.
With you your last comment, I have no argument that the models are copyright. The legal question is not whether they are copyrighted but what is considered fair use – which is determined by court according to the four factors.
That is actually a really good argument about Napster being out longer. I’m not positive but I think Napster lasted for no more than 2 years while Machinimation has been around for 3-4 years at least. Additionally, it was very clear from the beginning that music artists were (almost entirely) united in their stance against Napster and sharing music whearas video game companies tend to all enjoy machinimation. Lastly, it was Napster who was killed legally when Big Music took it to court, not the person ripping the music.
With you your last comment, I have no argument that the models are copyright. The legal question is not whether they are copyrighted but what is considered fair use – which is determined by court according to the four factors.
Remember like 15 years ago (I don’t know how old you are) when Napster was really big? Everybody was copying, burning, and sharing music like crazy. The word on the street was that it was “technically legal.” Okay, it was not necessarily technically legal but it was a huge grey area because it was not yet defined by law. It’s the same thing with model ripping for Machinima. The only difference is that this has never gone to court to been defined by law because game companies don’t care – they even like it. The questions of "fair use" are undefined and game companies are obviously comfortable with that for now. It’s very unlike the music industry that was clearly losing money because people no longer had to buy their CDs. Besides, the worst case legal action is that the video would get taken off youtube.
If game companies always love the overall machinimated project, could you explain why the would care if the person who performed the work was paid or not?
Archie, I truly respect your work in the industry you are a part of and the experience you have had. However, to think that there is some sort of legal risk to the model ripper for use in a production with Machinima is still absolutely wrong. I know you disagree with that and I hope to give a better argument so you can begin to see why we continue to use ripped content all over the web. I too am not trying to antagonize.
The worst case scenario (worst possible case) is that the youtube video would get flagged and taken off youtube. There is no possible way this job could or would get tracked to the ripper. If the ripper wants some sort of “protection” in the contract they sign with me – we can do it. If you want, by contract, I would never tell anybody at Machinima who exactly ripped and compiled the content.
Do we have explicit permission for this exact rip? No. Getting permission for this would be a waste of time for everybody up and down the ladder for both companies. The relationship up top is what matters. If for whatever reason we find out that Riot didn’t like us using their model (for whatever reason) – they would discuss it up top and it would be a very simple fix; we take the video down and we learn that Riot has a very different approach then the rest of the video game world.
If this becomes a popular series – then it would be worth the time. Right now this is just a pilot. If this is popular, Riot would probably reach out to Machinima and they would help me find a contact there at Riot who would work with me – like the way Bungie worked with the Red Vs Blue team. However, it takes time and an audience for those on top to think making those connections is worth the time.
We have no idea how much ripped content we can use in machinimation because there has never been a court case that has needed to look at the four factors of fair use. There has never needed to be a court case because, as I keep saying, the video game companies LOVE machinimation with their content. What they are worried about is the use of their ripped content in other video games.
You mentioned my response was “vague.” I agree because the issue itself is vague. The subject is not as easily defined as model rippers tend to think. The “fair use” of ripped models in Machinimation is a legally grey area. The reason it’s not black and white is because it is clearly NOT an “ethically” grey area. Video game companies love it. It’s not like CD burning which for most musicians is clearly “stealing.” What we are doing we continue to do with blessing.
Does this help at all Archie?
The worst case scenario (worst possible case) is that the youtube video would get flagged and taken off youtube. There is no possible way this job could or would get tracked to the ripper. If the ripper wants some sort of “protection” in the contract they sign with me – we can do it. If you want, by contract, I would never tell anybody at Machinima who exactly ripped and compiled the content.
Do we have explicit permission for this exact rip? No. Getting permission for this would be a waste of time for everybody up and down the ladder for both companies. The relationship up top is what matters. If for whatever reason we find out that Riot didn’t like us using their model (for whatever reason) – they would discuss it up top and it would be a very simple fix; we take the video down and we learn that Riot has a very different approach then the rest of the video game world.
If this becomes a popular series – then it would be worth the time. Right now this is just a pilot. If this is popular, Riot would probably reach out to Machinima and they would help me find a contact there at Riot who would work with me – like the way Bungie worked with the Red Vs Blue team. However, it takes time and an audience for those on top to think making those connections is worth the time.
We have no idea how much ripped content we can use in machinimation because there has never been a court case that has needed to look at the four factors of fair use. There has never needed to be a court case because, as I keep saying, the video game companies LOVE machinimation with their content. What they are worried about is the use of their ripped content in other video games.
You mentioned my response was “vague.” I agree because the issue itself is vague. The subject is not as easily defined as model rippers tend to think. The “fair use” of ripped models in Machinimation is a legally grey area. The reason it’s not black and white is because it is clearly NOT an “ethically” grey area. Video game companies love it. It’s not like CD burning which for most musicians is clearly “stealing.” What we are doing we continue to do with blessing.
Does this help at all Archie?
The only reason I can think of why my credibility as a producer is more important than pay is if you believe I am not going to pay upon the completion of a project. You can rest at ease - we can contract together and I can pay you a portion up front before you start the project.
The only series that I have worked on that I would consider “successful” is Smash Champ. I currently am producing 15 different series or pilots. I cannot legally show you the contracts I have signed with Machinima for these series but I can show you some of the work done so far by the various directors. The only two series which are currently running is Boss Battles and Smash Champ Snake – both are not doing very well at the moment but they are contracted series none-the-less. The most notable upcoming series is an Ocarina of Time series written by the writer and lead actor of Legend of Neil. You will hear of it eventually I assure you.
I have had a couple successful independent videos.
Life of a Minecraft Pickaxe
Angry Birds vs Worms
Revenge of Minecraft Boy
And lastly, here is an old demoreel,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxTBegVNlk8
LaVolpe, if you told me you would be willing to do the project for $400, I would not accuse you of being manipulative. This is freelance work. The consultant should give me a going rate and then I should agree or negotiate. I was assuming since I was so “suspicious” and because those here are probably hobbyist, that throwing numbers around might encourage somebody to give me a real quote. I’m not quite sure how that is manipulative or blinding. I’m not looking for an employee.
Now, it seems I am getting quite a harsh response on here. I’m sorry if I have offended anybody somehow. I just have a job that needs to get done and I don’t understand why there is so much resistance here. I myself would jump at an opportunity to make money from my personal hobbies.
The only series that I have worked on that I would consider “successful” is Smash Champ. I currently am producing 15 different series or pilots. I cannot legally show you the contracts I have signed with Machinima for these series but I can show you some of the work done so far by the various directors. The only two series which are currently running is Boss Battles and Smash Champ Snake – both are not doing very well at the moment but they are contracted series none-the-less. The most notable upcoming series is an Ocarina of Time series written by the writer and lead actor of Legend of Neil. You will hear of it eventually I assure you.
I have had a couple successful independent videos.
Life of a Minecraft Pickaxe
Angry Birds vs Worms
Revenge of Minecraft Boy
And lastly, here is an old demoreel,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxTBegVNlk8
LaVolpe, if you told me you would be willing to do the project for $400, I would not accuse you of being manipulative. This is freelance work. The consultant should give me a going rate and then I should agree or negotiate. I was assuming since I was so “suspicious” and because those here are probably hobbyist, that throwing numbers around might encourage somebody to give me a real quote. I’m not quite sure how that is manipulative or blinding. I’m not looking for an employee.
Now, it seems I am getting quite a harsh response on here. I’m sorry if I have offended anybody somehow. I just have a job that needs to get done and I don’t understand why there is so much resistance here. I myself would jump at an opportunity to make money from my personal hobbies.
Rimrock, this is my first time working with 3D as a producer. I can show you some 3D work my director has done or other productions I have been involved with. Or were you wanting to see some 3D machinimation using ripped game content that is posted on Machinima?
It sounds like $400 is a better place to begin negotiation. Anybody interested?
If this is an easy job for you. Please let me know the main issue you have so we can get it resolved. Let's connect on Skype or something.
Archie,
Are you suggesting that Hollow’s response was clearer than mine? Like I said, our company and many others have been doing this for years for commercial purposes. We have legal experts on our full time staff that focuses on these questions all day. Besides, I honestly don’t think those who are focusing on the legal aspect of this have any interest in this gig anyway so there really is no reason for me to take time proving that all of this okay. If you can do this job and the legal issues are a serious concern, I will talk legal issues with you. Otherwise, it’s a waste of both our times.
Also, me asking Riot for models would be like an independent movie director from a low budget production asking Disney if they can use a prop from Pirates of the Caribbean. There is nothing wrong with using the prop but in order for them to take the email serious I would have to contact my boss who would contact his boss who would contact his boss, etc, etc, who would then use his connection to contact his employee who would contact his employee, etc. etc. This kind of favor is not worth it when I can easily find somebody to rip this for me for a couple bucks.
Are you suggesting that Hollow’s response was clearer than mine? Like I said, our company and many others have been doing this for years for commercial purposes. We have legal experts on our full time staff that focuses on these questions all day. Besides, I honestly don’t think those who are focusing on the legal aspect of this have any interest in this gig anyway so there really is no reason for me to take time proving that all of this okay. If you can do this job and the legal issues are a serious concern, I will talk legal issues with you. Otherwise, it’s a waste of both our times.
Also, me asking Riot for models would be like an independent movie director from a low budget production asking Disney if they can use a prop from Pirates of the Caribbean. There is nothing wrong with using the prop but in order for them to take the email serious I would have to contact my boss who would contact his boss who would contact his boss, etc, etc, who would then use his connection to contact his employee who would contact his employee, etc. etc. This kind of favor is not worth it when I can easily find somebody to rip this for me for a couple bucks.
We have been making Machinimations on our multiple channels for many years and have never had any legal issues with the use of ripped models. In fact, video game companies praise the work. If you think there are any legal issues with the project I need done you are mistaken.
And we have a positive relationship with Riot Games.
I'm not really here to argue with anybody though. I just need to find somebody to help me with this project. If you are interested please contact me.
And we have a positive relationship with Riot Games.
I'm not really here to argue with anybody though. I just need to find somebody to help me with this project. If you are interested please contact me.
It's not illegal but if you are worried about it we don't have to credit you.
If you can do it, email me. I would be happy to answer any of your legal questions.
If you can do it, email me. I would be happy to answer any of your legal questions.
I'll pay $100 to the person who can complete this project within 24 hours of this post.
email me
email me
It seems like I have found somebody.
My name is Rick Jones. I am the creator of the Smash Champ series on Machinima.
I have an urgent request that I am willing to pay for. I need somebody who can export all of the “Summoner’s Rift” level models from League of Legends for the Source Engine and then recreate the entirety of Summoner’s Rift in Hammer for use in SFM. If you are interested in this gig please let me know asap as finding somebody who can do this is my main priority today.
You may contact me at pikaparody @ gmail . com
I have an urgent request that I am willing to pay for. I need somebody who can export all of the “Summoner’s Rift” level models from League of Legends for the Source Engine and then recreate the entirety of Summoner’s Rift in Hammer for use in SFM. If you are interested in this gig please let me know asap as finding somebody who can do this is my main priority today.
You may contact me at pikaparody @ gmail . com