choice or life Created 17 years ago2006-09-23 23:50:08 UTC by VOX

It's about time we had one of these. What are people's views on abortion? I think a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body. If she has a baby and doesn't want a baby, she should be able to get rid of it. The baby can't think about anything until it is like 2 days old (post birth) anyway.

I agree women should be able to choose, if for no other reason that it's her body. Late-term abortions are pretty iffy, and should still be banned though imo.

im "life" + adoption if it isn't wanted, and hopefully adoption becomes cheaper because right now its like 20k to adopt a kid.

the only time I think abortion should even be considered is within the first 2 days or if the childs continued growth has a high chance of killing the mother.

You don't think it's completely rediculous to go through pregnancy and birth only to put the child up for adoption? That's worse than just killing the kid when he's 12!

I think that it should be a woman's choice whether to abort a baby or not within the first 3 months, or some time long before the baby is [almost] completely developed.

That's worse than just killing the kid when he's 12!

So, putting up the child up for adoption so that it can have a better life than you can provide is worse than killing them?

I fail to see your logic.

It should be ok as longs as its the first 2 - 3 months. Otherwise its fucked up.

Yeh, early abortion is a good

Yeup.

Stop polarising arguments, being pro arbortion does not mean you'll be willing to allow abortions upto the actual day of birth, being pro life does not mean you are totally against abortions ever under any circumstances, even rape.

I'm for the right of women to have a choice, no woman should be forced to undergo an unwanted pregnancy because of rape or otherwise, but no woman should be allowed to abort at the point when the child could survive without the mother. Its a tough point here because technology is required to develop it from this early stage, which is 'playing god' a bit.

I'm sure in 30 years when the planet is grossly overpopulated these arguments will seem laughable.

Stop using "pro life" or "pro choice", it's bullshit. Just say "for abortion" or "against abortion", that's what it's about.

I'm all for abortion as I believe no one should be forced to have kids. As long as adoption isn't working properly, abortion should definitely be around.

no one should be forced to have kids

You mean no one should be forced to have sex. You don't get pregnant out of watching TV or playing basketball...
Of course, people today never think of the consequences of their actions. It's so much easier to kill whatever comes along than to assume the big responsability...

Has anyone thought of the role of the father in these cases? If the woman doesn't want the child, she can abort it without the consent of the father (after all, she's the one carrying it). But if she does want to keep it, the father will have to pay child support etc.

people are stupid for giving into the most powerful emotion we have, stupid idiots

"Pro choice" here, even though I hate to use that term. As ZL said, it sounds stupid. Apparently you're against all forms of life if you think abortion should be allowed.

If the woman doesn't want the child, she can abort it without the consent of the father (after all, she's the one carrying it). But if she does want to keep it, the father will have to pay child support etc.

Interesting, but still besides the point. The father doesn't have to undergo all the bodily changes and risk death to give birth.

It's entirely upto the woman to abort, at any stage of pregnancy. The child won't understand nor care, because until multiple months old, they haven't grasped any sort of emotion, and live on instinct. Plus, unborn children are essentially parasites However, it's really upto the parents to be more responsible with contraception.

It doesn't matter what unborn children are. What matters is what they will be>> grown humans.
If we follow the logic of "what matters is what things are NOW", then abortion defies that logic because it is usually about the future (there might be birth complications, the child will be a burden, the woman might be fired etc)
If you make a decision based on possible future events, it would be wise to think of all the alternatives and outcomes. And of course, we all agree, thinking of the consequences before you act.

Being the product of a failed abortion, (yes you herd me correctly) I have something to add to this topic.

It is the mother?s choice and we do not have the right to question their choice
End of discussion

(P.S. I don?t blame my mother, but it would have been nice to have know my twin brother that did not make it.)

the child might grow up to be the next Hitler, kill it while you still have the chance

If a clone of Hitler was born today, he wouldn't become "the next Hitler" unless he lived through the same events as Hitler did.
You can't judge the society value of a child before it is even born, so that can't be a basis for judgement. A lot of great people were born in situations where abortion would have been recommended.

If you use the argument of "the baby can't think", then killing everyone who is in a comma wouldn't be that bad.
Of course, a person in a comma can eventually recover and think again. The same way, a baby will eventually be born and be able to think.

Or the child might grow up to be the next president! Also saying, "It is the womans body it is her choice!' Doesn't make sense because the baby isn't her body it is the baby's body. A living being. It doesn't matter whether the baby is sentient or not, it is a living being. A hampster isn't sentient and we don't kill them, because they are living organisms. I think most of your people are just repeating what either someone else says or the news says. Think for yourself. People should think before having sex. It is their fault for being an idiot. Who are they to decide whether something lives or dies.

Or the child might grow up to be the next president!

That doesn't sound too encouraging in these dark times

To all those people whom think a few cells live, DONT WALK YOU MIGHT KILL AN ORGANISM, DONT EVEN BREATH.

If a 30 yr. old hooker gets pregnant - abort away.
If a woman becomes pregnant and can't support a baby - abort.
If a woman doesn't want the baby - abortion.

If you catch a rapist/child rapist in action - chop his balls off, stick them in his eyeholes, take a 10 meter long splintery pole, with rusty nails sticking out, shove it up his ass and into his body making it come out his head, place the pole with the rapist in your city's central square and fire 3 rounds of any 50cal. machinegun into his chest. (Or just kick his ass, like never before (preferrably the groin) and hand him over to the police. Such sick fuckfaced dipshits make fine bitches in prison..)

Abortion is a lifesaver, for some wimen sometimes. It should always be their decision, whether they want to keep baby, or not.

To all those people whom think a few cells live, DONT WALK YOU MIGHT KILL AN ORGANISM, DONT EVEN BREATH.

Search for a definition of life. Living cells are alive. The question is not whether you are killing a living being (which of course, you are) but if you are killing a human.
Take a cell of that "being" and compare it with yours. It will most probably have the same amount of chromosomes than you >> it is human.
According to a lot of people here, a foetus becomes human "one magical day" which is undefined. Up to that unknown magical moment, it has no human rights.
To some people, "life" begins the day the baby is born. If for any reason the child is born prematurely, how much do we wait to consider it alive and human? Is a baby of a 9-month birth more human than a 7-month born?

Search for a definition of life. Living cells are alive. The question is not whether you are killing a living being (which of course, you are) but if you are killing a human.
Take a cell of that "being" and compare it with yours. It will most probably have the same amount of chromosomes than you >> it is human.
According to a lot of people here, a foetus becomes human "one magical day" which is undefined. Up to that unknown magical moment, it has no human rights.
To some people, "life" begins the day the baby is born. If for any reason the child is born prematurely, how much do we wait to consider it alive and human? Is a baby of a 9-month birth more human than a 7-month born?

Second

A baby is a baby when it's born. Until then it's just a collection of developing cells. People always act like such pussies in this world. So what? The damn world is going to be overpopulated in a few centuries anyway! Slow it down! "Oh no! We can't destroy a life, that would just be SO wrong! We've fought wars countless times before but we just CAN'T let this baby die!" Imagine how far advanced our medical technology would be if the bullshit pussies didn't prevent us from studying stem cells because it was "wrong". Give me a break. Start to act like you're at the top of the food chain, and do what's right for the people, not for your own morals.

Hey, you started the thread searching for opinions. Don't get pissed off if they are different from yours.

We aren't actually aborting or preventing abortion in this thread. We're just talking about it. I'm not telling anyone why they shouldn't do it. I'm saying why I don't support it.
If it's just about morals, you won't have a hard time ignoring people who have a contrary opinion. Unless of course, they somehow make you feel guilty of yours..
Anyway, a human is a human even before it is born. You have no scientific proof of the contrary. I don't see how you can argue that point. A newborn baby is also a collection of "developing cells". It just takes it's oxygen and nutrients in a different way and is surrounded by air instead of organic matter.

Once that's settled, the question is "Is it right to kill a human?"

Wars are obviously worse than abortion. The Bush administration is full of hypocresy. They criticize abortion but have no problem bombing civilians abroad. Meh...

I really dont have a problem killing humans. So neither do i have with abortion.

I don't think it's completely wrong to kill another human being to defend another (yourself, your family etc). But killing a totally defenseless human sounds bad.

Unborn kids are human, we can just aswell settle that. But they don't have the same rights as humans seeing as how they're not even conscious. In short, the mother's right to choose outdoes the child's rights.

"Conscious" is also an ambiguous term. By that logic, someone who is in a comma isn't fully human.

You're grasping for straws here methinks.

Don't step on the grass, it's ALIVE! Do you want someone to step on you?

..The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Hum. I guess it wasn't clear enough some posts above. There are some questions which keep showing up in this type of threads. I'll tell you how I see each.

-Is the question: is it alive?. Nope. We know it is. The question is: is it human?

-Is a foetus human? Any of its cells will tell us it is. You can't make a scientific claim that says otherwise. How different is a newborn baby from what it was some days before? And a week before? etc.

-Is there a magical number of cells you need to be considered human? How many are those?
Once again, impossible to give a reasonable answer.

-Will a foetus grow to become a human?
Yes, if you let it.

-If it is barely human, does it have human rights?
Not too many. Maybe only the first. The Right to Life.

-Are sperm cells "potential life"?
No. Only when joined with an egg cell, does it add to 46 chromosomes, meaning it's human. A sperm or egg cell can't grow into a human.

-When is a human being conscious?
Hard to tell. So it should never be the base of any judgement.

-Are abortions dangerous?
Of course they are. And they can also have serious negative psycological effects on the mother. Everyone must know that.

-Are abortions and wars the solution to overpopulation?
No... Family planning and education is the best (although difficult) option.

-

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

What imaginary line is that?

-Is stepping on living grass a good thing to do?
As good as eating an apple and stepping on ants. Until they make the "Grass rights", "Fruit rights" and "Ant rights", they will have to cope with it.

So by your logic, there is no difference between you and a foetus. Just a collection of cells, right?

Do you have any memories of being a foetus? I know i don't.

And abortions aren't made like seconds before the child is born. It's done early in the pregnancy.

I'm saying why I don't support it.

I'm sorry Kasp, until you grow a vagina, I can't respect that opinion. You're not the one that has to go through pregnancy/birth. It should be up to the woman in question to decide.

So by your logic, there is no difference between you and a foetus. Just a collection of cells, right?

More or less, yes. I was once a foetus so we can't be very different. As I said before, if you are going to consider it a human being in the least possible way, then you should at least give it the most basic human right >> life
I know abortions are done early. But the thing is, you can't really tell why it's not wrong then and it is a couple of months afterwards. My main objection is not about killing someone or making it suffer (saying the foetus doesn't "feel" or "know" is an overused argument). It's about denying someone the chance to live.

I'm sorry Kasp, until you grow a vagina, I can't respect that opinion. You're not the one that has to go through pregnancy/birth. It should be up to the woman in question to decide.

I agree. But if some girl is carrying something which has half of your genetic structure, you could at least have an opinion. You can disagree even if it's legally up to her. Like I said above. If she doesn't want it and you do, you lose. If you don't want it and she does, you also lose.
It's also strange how people refer to pregnancy and birth as if it was some sort of sickness or fatal accident. Did you know that there have been more than 6 thousand million succesful pregnancies and births in the past 100 years?

Anyway, what bothers me about abortion is when it is used as an easy way to rid yourself of the responsability of conceiving a child. You are not ready to have a child? Then you are not ready for unsafe sex. Period.

Do you have any memories of being a foetus? I know i don't.

I also don't have any memories of when I was a year old.

There is no way to know if a fetus can feel, think, etc.