Paradoxes Created 16 years ago2007-06-06 11:34:45 UTC by Alabastor_Twob Alabastor_Twob

Created 16 years ago2007-06-06 11:34:45 UTC by Alabastor_Twob Alabastor_Twob

Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 07:06:49 UTC Post #224739
But wait a sec.. what if you would travel into a point in time BEFORE your own childhood, and then triggering an event preventing you from being born.
In that way your "old future/reality" can't be canceled out because then you would have no point of existing in the new one.
Therefore, realities can't cease to exist.
The old reality is still there, and you're no longer in it, you've moved from one reality to another.
That's the famous grandfather paradox, where you kill your own grandfather to prevent your own birth.
I don't know why it couldn't just be a father paradox.
Alabastor_Twob Alabastor_Twobformerly TJB
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 11:55:36 UTC Post #224755
If you managed to kill Gordon Freeman in Opposing Force, and you had Half-Life 2 installed, does your PC explode?
monster_urby monster_urbyGoldsourcerer
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 12:26:19 UTC Post #224759
TJB: Don't mind that post I was very tired when I wrote it.
What I really ment was, it would create a chain reaction causing all possibe realities from that point to cease to excist, and does not at all prove that they can't cease to excist.
Madcow MadcowSpy zappin my udder
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 13:08:21 UTC Post #224761
Makes sense to me
Madcow MadcowSpy zappin my udder
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 13:08:29 UTC Post #224762
If me and Kasperg made a coop map, would the internet be able to contain it?
Actually him and I should just do it and get it over with.
get over yourself Rim, nothing worse than a self-aware arrogant prick.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 13:37:08 UTC Post #224764
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 13:45:00 UTC Post #224765
why doesnt speedycat take two steps in 90 degree directions from the angle of falling?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 13:51:22 UTC Post #224767
cos he can't in this paradox, ok !!
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 15:27:40 UTC Post #224770
get over yourself Rim, nothing worse than a self-aware arrogant prick.
Here comes the drama.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 21:15:54 UTC Post #224786
I've gotta side with Dorian here. Sorry Rim.
Trapt Traptlegend
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 22:57:33 UTC Post #224787
I said that a long time ago. :o
Luke LukeLuke
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:16:00 UTC Post #224788
Actually, ignoring the entire theory of infinitly alternate timelines, if you went back in time to kill yourself, your father, or otherwise interfere in any way that would prevent you from doing the actions of the intervention there are 2 possible outcomes.

1) The universe stops you from doing so.
2) You are able to do so, but in doing so remove the reason in real time. You continue to exist as a point on the line of time but you become an obnoxious bubble/loop on it. You essentially have sprung into being at whatever time you went to. With whatever in your brain that you had when you didn't leave. See the hitchikers guide to the galaxy for an explanation on the new tense's created by timetravel.
On another timetravel note. Some of you remember Imagining the tenth dimension

At the higher dimensions you end up with multiple universes, they can be represented as points that contain the universe and all possible things to ever occur in it from creation onward. I won't go into it unless someone asks but its completely possible to create a universe from absolutely nothing, without the passage of time, and without any remote influence. Hence no first cause.

These different universes can be insanly different. Ill tell you why thats important in a second. But first a visualization of the multiverse. I'll use the basic picture that Iain M Banks used. I think this particular one was written in Excession, which is a really damn good book that you should all read:

Take a point in n-th dimentional oblivion (Define Oblivion as lack of Probibility, as particles and energy exist as probability statistics per quantum physics). from that point you can create spheres of increasing radii outwards indefinatly. A radii of infinity is time. All Radii are ammounts of time elapsed since the creation of each individual sphere, which are constantly increasing in Radii.

These Spheres each are universes. Probability wise they will be quite similar, but likely some will be much different. These are 7th dimensional universes. In the animation it says you could fold in through the 5th to go back in time in the 4th. Even more modern higher magnitute thinking has pretty much proved that that is impossible unless your 8th dimensional Origin itself had entirely different rules, hence entirely differen't dimensional structure and visualization. Instead what would happen in your particular sphere dimension, were you to try and alter time, would not actually be going back in time. It would be taking that particular universe and changing its current state.

This doesn't circumvent the fact that its eventually going to die. Weather by rip, squeeze, heatdeath, bose-eintein condensation, etc there is no way to stop time from marching on. And 8th Dimentional globably your universe continues to expand and increase in entropy because of it.

The only way to survie is to fold through the 8th dimention into a universe where less time has elapsed, possibly jumping all the way back to instant one and artifically alter the way that it forms after creation.

I think I lost my point somewhere in there but it was fun to type and hence worth it
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:17:52 UTC Post #224789
Go garg?
Luke LukeLuke
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:20:11 UTC Post #224790
tl;dr
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:23:57 UTC Post #224791
lol wut?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:25:43 UTC Post #224793
tl;dr Newklear fisesist is me
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:26:34 UTC Post #224794
Yeah, I bet it was even too long for you to read over yourself.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-08 23:34:59 UTC Post #224795
I typed it on the spot, what do you expect?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-09 01:04:51 UTC Post #224796
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-09 16:28:18 UTC Post #224814
I read it.
You lost me at this point:
Take a point in n-th dimentional oblivion (Define Oblivion as lack of Probibility, as particles and energy exist as probability statistics per quantum physics). from that point you can create spheres of increasing radii outwards indefinatly. A radii of infinity is time. All Radii are ammounts of time elapsed since the creation of each individual sphere, which are constantly increasing in Radii.
:I
Madcow MadcowSpy zappin my udder
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-09 16:34:35 UTC Post #224815
Yah..... wtf?
Luke LukeLuke
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-09 21:17:19 UTC Post #224819
God damnit where did all the smart people here go? We used to argue about stuff like this back in the day you know, and those conversations went elsewhere then the spouting of imagemacros, bad grammer, and tl;dr'ing.

Well, I look forward to seeing how the world reacts to the generation.
User posted image
(That says effort on it)
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-09 22:48:43 UTC Post #224821
aye, before the war much was different...
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 09:37:16 UTC Post #224832
Here is a nice paradox. How many people are needed to make the chance more than 50% so that two of those people have the same birthdays, (not including years, duh)

The answer is 23 people.

So if you have 23 people, there is a greater than 50% chance that two of them have the same birthday.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 10:12:26 UTC Post #224834
No seriously garg, I am interested.
Please explain that part

mcmitcho: That's not a paradox, that's like a clever question with a logical answer.

A true paradox is a statement wich lacks logical answers like "this statement is false" or ""This is a lie" - that was my first lie"
Madcow MadcowSpy zappin my udder
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 10:38:53 UTC Post #224836
It's called the birthday paradox.
a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I say it's a paradox.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 11:25:08 UTC Post #224839
It's a paradox, just a simple mathematical one.

Much like this -
Imagine there is a disease which affects 1 person out of every 10,000 in the world.

The disease is absolutely fatal. If you've got it, you've got a few months left, and then you'll just suddenly keel over and die suddenly. There is no escape.

There is a medical test which can tell you if you have the disease. The test is 99% accurate, whether you have the disease or not.

Of course, you want to know, so you take the test.

The result comes back POSITIVE (oh noes!)

What is the actual percentage chance that you have the disease?
Logical and moral paradoxes are much more entertaining. The key to this one is "whether you have the disease or not" ;)
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 11:34:37 UTC Post #224840
Umm, isn't it 1 in 10,000?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 11:40:12 UTC Post #224841
If expressed as a percentage, yes.

Put yourself in that position though. You take a test which is 99% percent accurate, and it says you have the disease. What's your first thought when you get the results?

It's counter-intuitive.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 11:45:24 UTC Post #224842
Don't you mean 0.99 in 10,000? :o

One can easily figure that one out using basic maths.
I thought you defined a paradox as something without a solution which makes any sense (like the one with traveling back in time, killing yourself).
How is a paradox really defined?
Madcow MadcowSpy zappin my udder
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 11:52:13 UTC Post #224843
The test tells you that there is a 99% chance that you have the disease -- IE that you are one the 1 in 10,000.

But it's only 99% accurate - regardless of whether you have the disease or not.

What are the chances that the test is correct? (Maybe that should have been the question from the start)

__

Added cos Madcow posted while I was typing.

There are numerous types of paradox. Some are more 'paradoxy' than others, but by the dictionary definition, these maths ones qualify.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 11:56:07 UTC Post #224844
What do you mean?
I answered wrong? :S
Madcow MadcowSpy zappin my udder
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 16:12:57 UTC Post #224856
posted by espen180
99%
This is the most common, wrong answer.

It works like this:

Your positive test result, with it's 99% accuracy means that either you are one of the 99% that have been correctly told that they have the disease, or that you are one of the other 1% who don't have the disease but have been incorrectly told that they do.

Imagine a million people take the test. Because it affects 1 in 10,000 -100 people out of the million actually have the disease.

Due to the 99% accuracy of the test, 99 of these hundred will be told correctly that they have the disease. On the other hand, the remaining 999,900 people do not have the disease, but 1% (or 9,999) of those are told incorrectly that they do.

So are you one of the 99 who has it, or one of the 9,999 who don't, but have been wrongly told they do?

9999:99

Which translates to 0.98% - the correct answer.

I know I said mcmitcho had got it right before, but he hadn't. I just hadn't done the sum he did (1/10000) correctly in my head at the time.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 19:35:22 UTC Post #224863
What could come from all this?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-10 22:54:59 UTC Post #224868
I have a brainbender of a story for all of you.

http://www.qntm.org/responsibility

Its quite good.

And reading Issiac Asimov's "The last question" is probably in order too.

If your going to Tl;dr just don't say anything at all.

As for Madcow, what do you want to know?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-11 03:41:06 UTC Post #224879
What could come from all this?
Not a great deal, I admit! :D

Here's a real paradox you can create yourself!

1. Get one piece of card.

2. Write "THE SENTENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS CARD IS TRUE" on one side of the card.

3. On the other side write ""THE SENTENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS CARD IS FALSE"

Paradox in a box! (or on a card, however you see it)
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-11 08:22:07 UTC Post #224891
Jahzel already did it in this thread, Playbus. Fail.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-11 08:37:27 UTC Post #224893
Ah well. Everyone makes mistakes.

If they didn't, discussion of this sort would be somewhat less fruitful, mmm?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-12 08:55:53 UTC Post #224983
What is the actual percentage chance that you have the disease? <- the question

You said that the disease affects 1 in 10,000 people. The chance that you HAVE it, (that is not whether a test says you have it or not) is 1/10,000.

according to my logic.
or .0001

To me, the test isn't even relevant to the question.

Can you explain to me where I was mislead?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-12 10:04:00 UTC Post #224986
The test is very relevant to the question.

The question "What is the percentage chance you actually have the disease?" is still valid, and still stands. It requires that you think carefully about all the information you have been given though, and not just the question itself, and the initial 1/10000 figure.

The answer is not 1/10000 (0.0001%) because thats just the chance of anyone having the disease.

The very fact that you've taken a test, and it said "YES YOU HAVE THE DISEASE" changes your chances of actually having it.

After all - it's a medical test which requires evidence to be collected showing that you do have the disease before it will give you a positive result.

And If there is actual medical evidence that you have the disease, then you're no longer just a random 1 person in 10,000. You're a person who has had the disease identified (rightly or wrongly) inside them.

Does that make sense to you now?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-13 07:38:41 UTC Post #225068
I understand, so that your chance of having the disease is 1/10000 (.01) BEFORE you take the test. meaning that if you took the test, and where told yes, what is the chance that you have the disease NOW.

right?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-13 08:04:58 UTC Post #225069
Yes.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-13 12:45:27 UTC Post #225103
Stop posting your non-nonsensical crap everywhere.
Luke LukeLuke
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-13 12:51:18 UTC Post #225108
OMG!!!
can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-14 00:13:49 UTC Post #225181
Espen that is completely wrong. Thats not even prealgebra and you got it wrong.
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-14 05:10:25 UTC Post #225188
0x1 = 0
0x2 = 0

0 = 0

...eh? I don't get what you were trying to get at, Espen.
RabidMonkey RabidMonkeymapmapmapfapmap
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-14 08:24:16 UTC Post #225196
Wouldn't it be bizarre if by some great cosmic joke, Espen was right ?

Then everyone in the world would be like...
Oh shit we were wrong... 1 actually equals 2...
Posted 16 years ago2007-06-14 12:07:31 UTC Post #225223
He meant;

0x1 = 0
0x2 = 0

0x1 = 0x2

(0/0) x1 = (0/0) x2 (Divide by zero to get rid of them.)

1 = 2

Which is positive proof that dividing by 0 is impossible and nonsensical!

Funny how the math and paradox thread are slowly but surely converging... :lol:
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