The Citizen: HL2 sp Created 17 years ago2007-11-08 18:18:15 UTC by Kasperg

Yay!

Tetsuo: It's called constructive criticism, and it's most definately allowed here - as much as any positive review.

Sorry, but BIG post below:

Ok, i'm an hour and a half into this game, and I have some thoughts on it. I had high hopes for this mod, especially considering the name behind it.

Firstly, the negative comments people have made here are entirely valid, from my point of view this mod has a long way to go. I'm going to just summarise my points individually.

1) Gameplay Mechanics. This is something that MUST be consistent in the world. Why is it that some wood blocks barring doors can be smashed, while others that look the same cannot? This is a real killer to the realism and immersion of the mod, people need to be aware of what they can and cannot do in the world as they expect it to operate. Your mod is, unfortunately, full of moments like this where something may not make sense considering past events, or what we've been led to believe in HL2.

2) Boundaries - The leeches in the sewer, and the snipers outside the shop for instance. These are not hinted to, explained, or eluded in ANY way to the player. I died from jumping in the water - I later died from walking outside of the shop before the combine even arrived. Again, immersion = killed. If there's one thing Valve has taught me it's that player training is vital to a fun and succesful game, would it be so hard to show a sniper gunning down someone outside the shop, or have someone explain the sewer is leech-infested?

3) Puzzles. I appreciate you trying puzzles that are out-of-the-norm, but most of what you've done is obscure and not applicable to what we've learned to expect in the HL2 world. Had the player been trained somewhat on their new mechanics, they could of worked. But no, we're frequently given new things that we aren't at all sure about, and left to deal with it. While they aren't all that hard to figure out, you're still leaving the player high and dry in unfamiliar terrain. Again, training is paramount to a fun game. Also, the lighting in many of the areas was a major hindance to some of the puzzles without a flashlight.

4) Combat. This is severely lacking, the moments set up are particularly uninspired, and poorly laid-out. The Snipers are given amazingly high vantage points (you may notice the sniper encounters in HL2 a relatively flat, and the player is always given enough verticle cover), while little cover is given to players and grenade boxes are miles away. The Strider battle is horribly unbalanced with the RPG box being in a completely seperate area, and the Strider being able to simply shoot at you through a cover-less tunnel on your way back. You've also flooded areas with baddies from time-to-time and provided little in the way of player aid.

5) Vehicles. This has, without a doubt, the worst Airboat scene i've ever played. It is way too enclosed for a vehicle of that speed and size and there is far too much in the way of debris laying around, basically you're forcing people to zig-zag and twist their way through narrow corridors. The entire sequence also felt odd, suddenly you're moving straight from a canal into a waste-covered basketball court adjacent an apartment block, really, what on Earth? This all makes little sense and isn't very fun at all.

6) Acting. I know you probably did the best you can, but most of the speech and npc sequences in this mod make it feel cheap and tacky. The theatre speech is one of the most cliched, b-grade rants i've ever heard. Other parts were better written, but were performed very flatly. It probably would've worked better to actually omit some of these scenes, or even resort to the (tacky, but less tacky) text-on-screen approach.

7) Load times. You placed these so frequently and absurdly that I got more aggravated playing HL2 then ever before, the maps seem horribly optimised too, poor load times and poor performance in some very basic looking areas really turned me off.

Now, if you quote me on this and say i've given no constructive criticism or no valid reasoning, then you're just being an ass. I'm sorry, but this is the way a lot of us see it, and they are, whether you want them to be or not, very valid points.

Not being able to solve basic puzzles is a problem within the player. Some people can, others cannot. It doesn't mean the game or mod was badly made, it just means it was thought for a different approach in gameplay that requeries a attention to detail some people don't have.

That is a very naive way of looking at it. These are somewhat basic puzzles, sure, but they're presented in obsure ways, with little valuable explanation, training or player guidance which is a must for any original puzzle.

There were positives to this mod, and they should be commended, but seeing the typical response you're getting I thought you might appreciate some slightly more detailed insight into why I too was disappointed with this mod.

When it comes to me rating this map in the mapvault, this is why I think i'll be giving it a 2 or possibly 3 out of 5.

Thanks for your opinion Stider.

At least you were calm about giving it, and gave good explanations for what you were saying.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it.

from my point of view this mod has a long way to go

Great. Welcome to the world of amateur level designers. Welcome to my first hl2sp maps EVER. :D. It's funny how you don't mention how far it actually went. Which just makes your opinion incomplete. But let's get on with the rest.

Why is it that some wood blocks barring doors can be smashed, while others that look the same cannot?

It's hard to keep track of every wood block in 16 maps, so it'd be great if you point out one of those places. By the way, metal bars are also blocking doors in several places. I hope you noticed they weren't made of wood.

If there's one thing Valve has taught me it's that player training is vital to a fun and succesful game

Then put it to good use and make a better mod than this one. And teach us with it.

I appreciate you trying puzzles that are out-of-the-norm, but most of what you've done is obscure and not applicable to what we've learned to expect in the HL2 world

Then you've just learned what to expect of "The Citizen" world, a hl2 modificiation.

Also, the lighting in many of the areas was a major hindance to some of the puzzles without a flashlight.

Again, examples would be helpful.

This has, without a doubt, the worst Airboat scene i've ever played. It is way too enclosed for a vehicle of that speed and size and there is far too much in the way of debris laying around, basically you're forcing people to zig-zang and twist their way through narrow corridors

That was the whole idea. At least you noticed. Just because there's an airboat everyone thinks it's an "airboat scene". It seems videogames today make people think very simplisticltly.

Acting. I know you probably did the best you can, but most of the speech and npc sequences in this mod make it feel cheap and tacky

Thanks. We didn't know they hadn't turned out Valve quality. Perhaps you could do some voices for the next installment? (I'm serious, we really need more voice actors).

7) Load times. You placed these so frequently and absurdly that I got more aggravated playing HL2 then ever before, the maps seem horribly optimised too, poor load times and poor performance in some very basic looking areas really turned me off.

Yes, some of the maps have performance issues, and most them take so long to compile that it was out of the question making them bigger or joining them.

I'm sorry, but this is the way a lot of us see it, and they are, whether you want them to be or not, very valid points.

Yet it seems not everyone had those problems. So it's still very subjective.

When it comes to me rating this map in the mapvault, this is why I think i'll be giving it a 2 or possibly 3 out of 5.

Yes, I'm sure that 3 out of every 5 maps in the mapvault is better than this mod :D.
If it makes you happy believing so, no-one is going to stop you.

I wanted to say that, but I've been typing too much today already

Still, I think it people are really giving us a lot of credit with this criticism (maybe subconsciously) by expecting Valve quality in the maps and gameplay mechanisms of this 8 month project.
As I said, it's my first HL2SP work ever, and I think we can be more proud of the good things we've done than cry about the bad things that have only really bothered some people to the point of ruining the experience.

I do think it's a bit irritating some people have reviewed it with the tone of voice that seems to suggest that they are expecting Valve quality.

We are two people with no budget.

But there have been some really nice reviews too. From people who are more objective

I'm also announcing that those who have had problems with this one can volunteer for playtesting in the next installment. We'd probably solve a lot of problems by having different types of players play through.
Maybe even having different routes or ways to do things, both for players who like to observe and think, and players who just like everything thrown in their face.
And yes, I'll never understand this tone of voice from some people. You give them something you worked on very hard for free, and they expect the 7 wonders of the world wrapped in gold and with a Valve seal. My area of expertise had only been architecture up to know, and I think the architecture in "The Citizen" does the job well in most places.
Edit: Ok, I did some HL1sp stuff before, but it had nothing to do with this.

Edit#2:I think a lot of complaints are also derived from people having a hard time by looking for problems inside the maps. I would understand it if people complained that it's hard to get something from the water with the leeches attacking you. Well, you don't have to jump in the water, so it's your decision. Leaving the shop when there's a Combine squad coming from that side is also a voluntary decision. The Do Not Press buttons are also a perfect example. Irritating that metrocop in map1 is also something you do on your own. The list is endless. Just because we created the a chance of doing something bad for you doesn't mean you have to do it. They are not requirements to complete any of the maps.

Mmm. I think what to do is pretty straightforward from map3 onwards...
And finding out what to do in an area is part of the game. Maybe Playbus and I have been playing different kinds of games besides Painkiller and Serious Sam, so we like this kind of exploration approach.
Just the way not everybody likes Doom3 (even if it's technically good), we don't expect all of our unprofessional maps to be of everyone's liking.
Some of the feedback we're getting is good. Some of it is good but hidden between senseless whining, and other things are just a matter of personal taste. Our priority are the technical issues right now.

players should be able to go back to the npcs he/she visited before and get reminders on where to go

Yeah, I do agree with this.

I will definately concentrate on making such reminders in the sequel!

Right guys you've got me. I'm going to play it tonight. Now later sometime I'll review it with my feedback but I'll let you know that I don't compare mods to Valve's standards. Whereas they have a team of skilled professionals you guys I'm sure have done the best any two guys could ever do in their free time.

I'll be back with poetry!

I still dont think that constructive criticism is constructive when they're just bashing parts of the game without any suggestions on how to better it.

I'm in need of some gameplay help. Where's this bell that the rebel woman speaks of before a swarm of soldiers attack? The only hint I get is that there's a key locked door in the church, but I can't find a key (also, there's a battalion of on my ass while I search around, low on ammo + health).

We're going to change that part a bit when we update. The key is in the back room behind the altar.

OO OO OO...What an interesting mod that was. Must have taken me 2-3 hours I believe.

Now where do I begin? Let?s start with the quality. Well I felt the mapping was not bad. It was pretty decent at times and others...well I could guess who made them ^^

There were some issues in the first few maps where models would appear when I walked close. As if you set their view distance to 5 centre metres. Although not the best mapping in the World I thought it put the point across and it did seem different as you had mentioned you were aiming for.

I liked the Easter eggs. Reminded me of Banjo-Kazooie ^^ Although hard to tell if I found them all. I explored pretty much every crack except for those where I was forced to run because of mass Combine.

Right onto game play. I liked the puzzles actually. I thought it was like a typical HL2 map. Action and puzzles. I liked some of the jokes by the way. Like the locked rebel and the decals etc...

I will say this. The church and the Strider fight were the worst experience. In the church she kept saying RING THE BELL RING THE BELL RING THE BELL HABBOI! And it took me a bit to find the key. I almost went on without ringing it but I wanted to unlock this secret D: Anyway the Combine kept spawning and I could even walk up to where they spawned and see them pile up...I wonder if the church is linked to another game ^_-

As for the Strider fight I wish you indicated where the rocket launcher and ammo were. I died so many times because of the sniper who should have had missed shot set to 1 or 2. Oh and after killing everything the theatre doors wouldn't open and I assumed it was because you had to kill everyone so I went back and heard combine around the corner where the force field is. I threw a grenade and that fished them out but you may want to fix that.

Another bug I noticed and I don?t blame you really but the bit where that guy gets snipered. Well I left my airboat near him so he got stuck D:

Oh and I was not happy with the night time fight bit because after finding the key in the toilets and unlocking the locker with the 'fuse' or battery as it really was. I wondered where to use it so I looked and found nothing so I continued on. Then I saw a scanner outside the bar and thought OH I should have used it there so I loaded about 5 mins back and did that all again. Listening to the speech (and breaking the table the radio sat on which floated)...then I take the battery to the scanner and that didn't work so TELL ME what that fuse was for D: Also the table where the scanner was can be broken. Give it health using an entity. Also when you first enter the theatre I saw that flipped over poster so I thought you hid an Easter egg under it so I crowbared it all the way down the stairs and used a rocket to flip it?>_ >

Next on the bugs list is this:

I got to the TV room and well had to turn the volume down a little so I didn't hear some of the dialogue. After standing around and nothing happened I reloaded it. Only to hear the breathing sound playing again...May want to look into that. But oh yeah I liked the overlays ^^

Another bug was that on the last map where the TV was. The dude on TV suddenly zapped and there were two of them. A scripting error ^^ I got pics if you need them. Just ask.

Lastly and this is a spoiler for some. At the end I kinda looked out the back window of the train and I think that slowed the train down or something because the advisor flew right through me...Not sure if that was intentional...And it ended so fast I was like huh D: So why did we get on the train anyway?

And when I came to I woke up in some outdoor area with DOG looking at me...And credits came up...What was that about?

Ok enough errors...Sound quality

Well the voice acting although iffy was good for the situation. I mean you had a lot of custom voices and they were pretty good. So yeah I liked the voices except one...Can't remember which but he sounded like a retard ^^

I liked the singing in the shower D:

Erm apart from all these bugs I liked it. Was quite fun although sometimes I wished I was guided a tiny bit. I would often think "Oh so that is how I should have solved it!"

I think that is everything. Overall 7/10 or maybe 7.5 because it was really long and I liked that. It had a pretty good story and the scripting was good. Erm Oh yeah I forgot to mention the lighting disappointed me at times. I think it was the first 6-8 maps that let me down with lighting...Maybe look at that. Just seemed too white in some. But very well done lads.

Thanks Habboi. I'm too tired to type much right now but I'll talk more about bugs and stuff tomorrow.

Thanks for taking a look. We are adding those bugs to the list.
The things you mention really show you really looked around. The battery you found is not for that scanner. It has to be used somewhere in the map where you found it. It's a secret after all
I think yours is a good review. Unlike some people, you have given us insight as to what needs to be changed or improved, but at the same time you've proven that some players appreciate the little details.For us, it's important to know what doesn't work, but also what worked and what people liked.
The strider battle is challenging but I don't think it's that hard, considering there are two RPGs available and lots of health and ammo around. You just have to move quickly (logical considering there's a strider and a sniper looking for you!).

Yeah glad I could help. The Strider battle wasn't hard. It was just not obvious where the rocket launcher ammo was.

There was more than one place with rpg ammo, if I'm not mistaking. I know we could move that to another place in that same area, but it would just make the combat easy and boring. It think it's ok the way it is. (or maybe there's a third possibility...)

lulz, epic difficulty. I finally realized you have to smash the door open with your crowbar and leave the rebels to die. Of course then, once I smash down the door, I get hit with 3 weapons at the same time, and my character dies.

I finally realized you have to smash the door open with your crowbar

No .... although that does work to an extent, it's not the easiest solution to that area.

when reading the previous posts in this thread, i was a little worried about how the mod would be. I played it, and i really enjoyed it.

The mapping was good, very hl2 like.

The gameplay was great. Im not sure why everyones complaining about the crowbar placement. When the combine began shooting at me, i naturally ran towards the closest door, and the crowbar was there! i thought that was pretty neat. I played it on normal, and some parts were really challenging, nothing too hard, nothing too easy. The manhack button, i was expecting to be a lot worse than it was criticized here. It made sense, like a cop emergency button for reinforcements or something. For all those who hate "do not press" buttons, quick save, then press. Its that simple :/

i loved the voice acting, everything sounded good, except i could complain about the guy with the really heavy accent, he was still understandable though. Another guy, in the grocery store that gets attacked, that guy just sounded weird

Another thing i didnt get, people have been saying this mod was too dark, however, i thought it was at the perfect brightness.

after progressing to the buttons which the only way to get past is to press randomly until you stumble upon the correct sequence

i saw the combination right next to the door, i thought it was pretty obivous

The airboat sequence was too tight, that was the only thing in the mod i didnt like.

Overall, great mod, i enjoyed playing, and i cant wait for a sequel

Thanks for playing.
I think some more func_vehicle_clip entities will make things easier in those airboat maps. I'm still not fully convinced that airboat = straight lines, big jumps and "exclusive airboat enviroments". The purpose of those levels is to make good use of the vehicle in unexpected circumstances.

Thanks HLMapper. I'm glad you had fun, that makes it all worthwhile for me!

Another guy, in the grocery store that gets attacked, that guy just sounded weird

He is a pretty wierd guy!

its just my driving style, i prefer big enviorments to drive in. But i guess when your in a half destroyed, partly flooded, combine infested city, you cant always get what you want

He is a pretty weird guy

then the voice acting fit the role well

then the voice acting fit the role well

I meant the actual guy who did the voice hehe

lol

Bug report:

When you use the elite disguise, your field of view just turns white.

Yes, we had reports of that on cards running DirectX7. The current fix is to type "ent_fire elitemask stopoverlays" in the console. I already know how to fix it for the update. It's just a couple of new lines in the material file to choose other materials depending on those DX settings.

The beginning of the library thing scene caused my framerate to chug a bit, something that didn't even happen in Ep2. Particularly when standing in the entrance and looking forward into the center of the room.

Just thought you might want to know, that's the one time it happened in the mod so far. Havn't finished yet.

My framerate is also bad in that particular spot. We're going to try out different ways of spawning the badies over there until my P4 2.00 Ghz can handle it.

sounds good

I really did like this mod, even though I got a little confused at some parts.

Firstly I ran through the start building about 20 times looking for what to do, I pressed the button thinking I had to kill the CP (I had already tried using the button before), so I lead them down, gave the CP a bit of damage but it took too long so I lead them into the room with the civies, killed a few of them. Still nothing, while walking around the room I got the message from the woman in the white shirt. Grabbed my TV Killed the Man hacks, then I was good for the rest of that chapter.

Had no trouble at all passing the CP, did it first time there.

Got the Crowbar and suit fine. No confusion with any of the button/Door puzzles, as I was able to see numbers on the doors.

I did find the Airboat out of place, I could have easily walked most of that (The Radiation didn't hurt me - wtf?), if I had a little more space to get some speed and less corners to crash into I would have liked it.

The Church was very annoying, The constant "Ring the bell" was stupid, I yelled at the monitor a few times saying "I can't find the bloody key", maybe an extra line and more of a pause between when she says it, because the voice got annoying after the 3rd time. I didn't notice I could break the middle door until after 10 mins of looking for the key, which I didn't find.

Loved the Suit Idea, A little more eye room in the CPU suit would have been good though, I was on my side half the time looking through one eye, The Elite suit was good.

So yes overall great mod, I am sort of a Role Playing guy and I was fine with most of it. I'd give it a 4/5. Nice work!

bug report: after jumping into the large conference room, and backtracking, after killing the traitor, i open the glass door to the overlook, and all the citizens open fire on me. why is that?

edit: it only seems to happen if you quicksave after you kill the traitor, and then reload before you go back to the group of citizens

Yes, we've been getting reports on that bug quite often. I've come to the conclusion that there's a flaw within HL2 itself and the Save Game system. Some entity parameters are not recorded into the file, which means some flaws will occur if you load the game. Were you hearing the breathing sound at that point? Did the problem occur when you first played or did it happen after loading a saved game? I never had any problems at all in that area until I decided to quick load. HL2 forgot I had gotten rid of the disguise.
We'll fix it for version 1.1, that's for sure.

oh yeah and in the first map, you need to clip the window that's above the clock. I went up to where the stupid manhacks come out, jumped on the sexy moving clock (moving backwards?) and up onto that window ledge. From there you can look down through the dodraw roof and into the hallway you just came up. not sexy.

I swear I had done that, thinking exactly of that situation. I'll clip it... or something like that...

The citizen problem occured after i loaded. When i loaded the autosave at the beginning of the level, and played through without loading, i was able to get past, and yes, i did hear the breathing after the loading and during the problem. While we are on the subject of the disguise, the elite one didnt work for me, the screen went black, so i had to use ent_fire elitemask stopoverlays. The cop overlay worked fine however.

From there you can look down through the dodraw roof and into the hallway you just came up

i discovered something simaler just after the part in the airboat sequence where you have to open the gate using the lost wheel. There was an open window, and i parked the airboat there and climbed up into there, expecting an easter egg, but i got a face full of nodraw

i replayed the mod again today, and took a long look at some of the gameplay choices, mapping, and just the entire thing in general, and i must say, even with some small bugs, you guys should be proud of this mod.

I want to be sure, so my question is: do refractive materials work with your 3D card? Are you running DirectX 7? It'll only take me a couple of lines to fix the elite mask for old gfx cards, but I need to know if that's the only problem with it.
I'll also clip that room you found (I thought I had done so too).
We will be more proud when we release an updated version (a patch wouldn't work as we need to change little things in almost every map).
It's only a suggestion, but some of you might want to wait for version 1.1 to complete it with every easter egg.

Well, my origninal graphics card (ATI X800 XL) blew out, so i just stuck this old thing in.
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200
and im running DirectX 9.0c

Yeah, there's refracting stuff, even on DX7.

@HLmapper or anyone with that same problem: Could you do me a favour? Can you add the two files in this zip file to your The Citizen/materials/citizen folder?
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mb2twa
You'll be asked to overwrite one of the files. In theory, this should get the elite mask working. I'll include it in the update if it works.

i added those files, but it didnt fix it. I got a black screen again.

I know...
I can make a file that will work for people with that problem, but I'd prefer if I could make the same material work for everyone.

Replayed it a few times since my last post

Found several more easter eggs, i bet not all of them though

Found all three crowbars, and got past the first level, without killing any cops. Second replay, i jumped on the cop instead of throwing th tv at him.

tried noclipping to see what you did to prevent noclippers.....i lol'd

I was kind of disapointed with the ending though. :
Classic HL2 style ending

I enjoyed it.

But I only got as far as the stridor/sniper/horde of Combine section.

It got too difficult to get past the stridor, the sniper, and then the group of soldiers.

You either need to have more health or health dispenser, or less powerful enemies grouped in the same area.

It's been fixed already. The sniper won't be as accurate, and I added more items and shortcuts around. I'm considering adding some rebel soldiers to appear when the Combine troops show up. But honestly, it's very easy to take them out if you still have the RPG.
The ending is what you'd expect after only the first two chapters, "the citizen" and "the soldier". It's not a closed story by any means, and as such doesn't need an obvious conclusion or a song about a cake. It's all about the journey.

The current download links will stop working pretty soon, and the updated version will be released sometime next week.

really bad time to do it since you're top competetor for the Map/Mod of the Month

I've got a temporary sendspace link which can be used for the old version in the meantime, if necessary. I'll put that one in the map vault.

I should be able to have the updated version up and ready by Monday. Maybe Sunday.

Shouldn't be too bad.