$ Paid Urgent Request Created 11 years ago2013-10-11 13:56:52 UTC by SmashBits

My name is Rick Jones. I am the creator of the Smash Champ series on Machinima.

I have an urgent request that I am willing to pay for. I need somebody who can export all of the “Summoner’s Rift” level models from League of Legends for the Source Engine and then recreate the entirety of Summoner’s Rift in Hammer for use in SFM. If you are interested in this gig please let me know asap as finding somebody who can do this is my main priority today.

You may contact me at pikaparody @ gmail . com

It seems like I have found somebody.

I'll pay $100 to the person who can complete this project within 24 hours of this post.

email me

Isn't that illegal?
Plus that is a lot of work, why do you need it?

It's not illegal but if you are worried about it we don't have to credit you.

If you can do it, email me. I would be happy to answer any of your legal questions.

It is illegal if you're wanting to use non-creative commons assets without the copyright holder's permission, and given that Machinima certainly isn't non-profit it is potentially a red flag for a lot of people who might otherwise consider it.

If you have permission from Riot Games, you should probably lead with that.

We have been making Machinimations on our multiple channels for many years and have never had any legal issues with the use of ripped models. In fact, video game companies praise the work. If you think there are any legal issues with the project I need done you are mistaken.

And we have a positive relationship with Riot Games.

I'm not really here to argue with anybody though. I just need to find somebody to help me with this project. If you are interested please contact me.

I just saw the Interlopers version of this thread. When Hollow, a respected designer from Ubisoft says that your legal stance is groundless it certainly puts me off, particularly when you're so vague in your responses.

Do you have explicit permission to make this transaction? A 'positive relationship' is not legally binding. Further, if you do indeed have permission, why will Riot not supply you with the models? They obviously wouldn't waste time porting them for you, but they could at least provide them in a workable format.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, but you must understand the need for clarity and transparency when it comes to this sort of thing. Freelancers have to take extreme care because they have no employer who will take a fall for them - if they run into legal problems then it's all on them.

Archie,

Are you suggesting that Hollow’s response was clearer than mine? Like I said, our company and many others have been doing this for years for commercial purposes. We have legal experts on our full time staff that focuses on these questions all day. Besides, I honestly don’t think those who are focusing on the legal aspect of this have any interest in this gig anyway so there really is no reason for me to take time proving that all of this okay. If you can do this job and the legal issues are a serious concern, I will talk legal issues with you. Otherwise, it’s a waste of both our times.

Also, me asking Riot for models would be like an independent movie director from a low budget production asking Disney if they can use a prop from Pirates of the Caribbean. There is nothing wrong with using the prop but in order for them to take the email serious I would have to contact my boss who would contact his boss who would contact his boss, etc, etc, who would then use his connection to contact his employee who would contact his employee, etc. etc. This kind of favor is not worth it when I can easily find somebody to rip this for me for a couple bucks.

'Easily'.

But that's fine. If you won't take your potential freelancers' perfectly reasonable questions seriously then so be it.

If this is an easy job for you. Please let me know the main issue you have so we can get it resolved. Let's connect on Skype or something.

An unwillingness to answer the question "Do you have permission?" implies that the answer is "No".

And "never had any legal issues" does not mean "will never have any legal issues".

Could you show us some of your finished works?

It sounds like $400 is a better place to begin negotiation. Anybody interested?

Rimrock, this is my first time working with 3D as a producer. I can show you some 3D work my director has done or other productions I have been involved with. Or were you wanting to see some 3D machinimation using ripped game content that is posted on Machinima?

I believe he meant your work, specifically. So productions you have been involved with.

Here's a question: Does it need to be summoner's rift specifically, or just a MOBA setting? I think it would be a lot easier (not to mention less of a legal grey area) for you to use DOTA content in SFM, since it's already compiled for Source.

I think people would be more interested in seeing your authenticity, before the amount you'd be willing to "give" them.

Your lack of ability to answer simple questions and dance around certain things makes me (and no doubt other's) highly suspicious.

Also, the fact that you're trying to blind people into saying "Yes" by presenting a base price and saying "begin negotiation", is extremely... Manipulative.

I am having a hard time understanding what the fuss is about. I saw a lot of "Summoner Rift" replicas used in varius animations on youtube. There doesn't seem to be anything illegal with it (I am certain that some of them wouldn't even bother to try to contact Riot), and with the company "Riot" taken into consideration which is a super-greedy company that even resells the so called "unlimited" digital merchandise they sold a few years ago, so yeah I am mostly positive that you won't get into trouble for mapping, animating and promoting their game on Youtube, Machinima or anywhere else.

Not to mention that we are talking about a MOBA game here, where every company copies stuff from an another MOBA and just adds a few new things to avoid any legal issues. However, I suppose it is a bit risky but not a very blatant one.

The only reason I can think of why my credibility as a producer is more important than pay is if you believe I am not going to pay upon the completion of a project. You can rest at ease - we can contract together and I can pay you a portion up front before you start the project.

The only series that I have worked on that I would consider “successful” is Smash Champ. I currently am producing 15 different series or pilots. I cannot legally show you the contracts I have signed with Machinima for these series but I can show you some of the work done so far by the various directors. The only two series which are currently running is Boss Battles and Smash Champ Snake – both are not doing very well at the moment but they are contracted series none-the-less. The most notable upcoming series is an Ocarina of Time series written by the writer and lead actor of Legend of Neil. You will hear of it eventually I assure you.

I have had a couple successful independent videos.
Life of a Minecraft Pickaxe
Angry Birds vs Worms
Revenge of Minecraft Boy

And lastly, here is an old demoreel,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxTBegVNlk8

LaVolpe, if you told me you would be willing to do the project for $400, I would not accuse you of being manipulative. This is freelance work. The consultant should give me a going rate and then I should agree or negotiate. I was assuming since I was so “suspicious” and because those here are probably hobbyist, that throwing numbers around might encourage somebody to give me a real quote. I’m not quite sure how that is manipulative or blinding. I’m not looking for an employee.

Now, it seems I am getting quite a harsh response on here. I’m sorry if I have offended anybody somehow. I just have a job that needs to get done and I don’t understand why there is so much resistance here. I myself would jump at an opportunity to make money from my personal hobbies.

I don’t understand why there is so much resistance here.

Given that you put your post on multiple sites and are still searching, I'm guessing you got a similar response to the one you got here and on 'Lopers more or less across the board. Why not consider that the response is valid and work to correct your opaqueness?

I particularly enjoyed your post:

There are so many legal things I could explain right now but I think it would be a waste of my time. From my experience talking with scared model rippers who know little about the law because they are not in the professional industry, nothing I say will be believed.

Which suggests not only that you've run into this exact same problem before, but that you've not learned from it at all. I work in an industry which has many crossovers with the games industry, particularly in terms of copyright law and I can categorically tell you there is no safety net for freelancers. The fact that you don't take this seriously is both insulting and incredibly obtuse.

I cannot say it any clearer:
I'm not trying to antagonize you, but you must understand the need for clarity and transparency when it comes to this sort of thing. Not once have I said don't do it - I have simply requested in clear, polite words for an answer to this question:

Do you have explicit permission to make this transaction? A 'positive relationship' is not legally binding.

Archie, I truly respect your work in the industry you are a part of and the experience you have had. However, to think that there is some sort of legal risk to the model ripper for use in a production with Machinima is still absolutely wrong. I know you disagree with that and I hope to give a better argument so you can begin to see why we continue to use ripped content all over the web. I too am not trying to antagonize.

The worst case scenario (worst possible case) is that the youtube video would get flagged and taken off youtube. There is no possible way this job could or would get tracked to the ripper. If the ripper wants some sort of “protection” in the contract they sign with me – we can do it. If you want, by contract, I would never tell anybody at Machinima who exactly ripped and compiled the content.

Do we have explicit permission for this exact rip? No. Getting permission for this would be a waste of time for everybody up and down the ladder for both companies. The relationship up top is what matters. If for whatever reason we find out that Riot didn’t like us using their model (for whatever reason) – they would discuss it up top and it would be a very simple fix; we take the video down and we learn that Riot has a very different approach then the rest of the video game world.

If this becomes a popular series – then it would be worth the time. Right now this is just a pilot. If this is popular, Riot would probably reach out to Machinima and they would help me find a contact there at Riot who would work with me – like the way Bungie worked with the Red Vs Blue team. However, it takes time and an audience for those on top to think making those connections is worth the time.

We have no idea how much ripped content we can use in machinimation because there has never been a court case that has needed to look at the four factors of fair use. There has never needed to be a court case because, as I keep saying, the video game companies LOVE machinimation with their content. What they are worried about is the use of their ripped content in other video games.

You mentioned my response was “vague.” I agree because the issue itself is vague. The subject is not as easily defined as model rippers tend to think. The “fair use” of ripped models in Machinimation is a legally grey area. The reason it’s not black and white is because it is clearly NOT an “ethically” grey area. Video game companies love it. It’s not like CD burning which for most musicians is clearly “stealing.” What we are doing we continue to do with blessing.

Does this help at all Archie?

The problem here imo is that it is "ok" to use in this case ripped models for any type on non commercial purpose most companies are ok with that. However if there is any kind of money involved it is not looked kindly upon and your relationship could crumble just like that.

If game companies always love the overall machinimated project, could you explain why the would care if the person who performed the work was paid or not?

Lets take for example valve, you are free to use SFM for any commercial gain, but you are not allowed to generate any kind of income using their assets(models), same with mods. The person ripping you the models and getting paid is generating revenue without acquiring a license to do so, same goes for contracts if Machinima pays you to make a series and you use those ripped models you are generating illegal gains and therefore game companies can take legal action against you, in your case id say you are lucky that they "love" your content. Im no lawyer or anything, but i think this is how it works.

Remember like 15 years ago (I don’t know how old you are) when Napster was really big? Everybody was copying, burning, and sharing music like crazy. The word on the street was that it was “technically legal.” Okay, it was not necessarily technically legal but it was a huge grey area because it was not yet defined by law. It’s the same thing with model ripping for Machinima. The only difference is that this has never gone to court to been defined by law because game companies don’t care – they even like it. The questions of "fair use" are undefined and game companies are obviously comfortable with that for now. It’s very unlike the music industry that was clearly losing money because people no longer had to buy their CDs. Besides, the worst case legal action is that the video would get taken off youtube.

.... You're kinda supporting the opposing side here. I mean, the industry involving youtube and the likes has only become big within the last couple years, it is still a new thing and has not had laws placed to it yet because like Napster (was), its a new thing.

As Scotch said before.

And "never had any legal issues" does not mean "will never have any legal issues".

Also, really this does have legal restraints to it already. I mean, what you are asking is for 3D modeling to be used in an animation... That is an art-form and does come under the restraints of copyright.

Legally it may not be enforced and may be a grey area of sorts, but the EULA for League of Legends is quite specific about what you may or may not do with the game files.

Emphasis mine:

...

Any use of the Software in violation of the license limitations set forth below is an unauthorized use of the Software outside of the license granted to you in Section I, and will be regarded as an infringement of the copyrights Riot Games holds in and to the Software and the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

...

B. Copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, derive source code from, or disassemble, in whole or in part, the Software or the Game, or create derivative works based on the Game, except that you are authorized to (i) make one (1) copy of the Software and the Documentation for personal archival purposes only; and (ii) use third party image and video capture software to capture the output of the Software as audio, video and/or still image files solely for personal, not for profit use pursuant to the Terms of Use and any applicable Riot Games policies pertaining to audio or video creation;

C. Modify or cause to be modified any files that are part of the Software in any way not expressly authorized by Riot Games;

...

It is entirely unambiguous that, without permission:

• Riot Games specifically does not approve modification, decompilation or reverse engineering of game files
• They also specifically do not approve of capturing video from the game and using it for profit

The legal status of a EULA is not something that I am interested or qualified in debating, but it is the closest thing to a legal contract that a developer has with their users. If you are certain that Riot Games loves machinima then you should have no problems getting approval. I don't know much about what being a producer entails but it seems that getting said approval would be your job.

Seeing as this request comes off as a little shady and specifically violates the EULA, it should be no wonder that you are having difficulty fulfilling this request. Hopefully you're able to resolve these problems and you can get your show off the ground. Good luck!

Great find PB. I never read those... (I bet 90% of people don't)

Anyway, to butt in and reconfirm what PB just said; It'd probably be best to get it in writing, from a Riot Game legal staffer, that you have authorization to acquire and use de-compiled models from their games in your videos that you may profit from.

We want to help you.
We just don't want to get boned by lawyers.

LaVolpe,

That is actually a really good argument about Napster being out longer. I’m not positive but I think Napster lasted for no more than 2 years while Machinimation has been around for 3-4 years at least. Additionally, it was very clear from the beginning that music artists were (almost entirely) united in their stance against Napster and sharing music whearas video game companies tend to all enjoy machinimation. Lastly, it was Napster who was killed legally when Big Music took it to court, not the person ripping the music.

With you your last comment, I have no argument that the models are copyright. The legal question is not whether they are copyrighted but what is considered fair use – which is determined by court according to the four factors.

Penguin and Tetsu,

The thing is Riot is already aware that Machinima has broken every single one of those license limitations multiple times and have told us they are okay with it.

Getting approval is a much longer process since both ladders are involved and Machinima simply thinks that spending a couple hundred bucks is easier than going through the process.

Tetsu, would you be able to complete this project? I have obviously failed at finding what I need because of all the legal fear. If Machinima did feel this project was worth getting permission and then went and got it – could you do it?

There is no such thing as "Fair use", either you are allowed to use those assets or you are not and Riot can take legal action if they wish.

America and some other countries do have a fair use policy, but it really only covers news, promotion, reviews and limited non-profit endeavours.

Riot ... have told us they are okay with it.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Rufee,

Archie is right in that in the “US” there is a fair use policy. Yes there is such a thing. He is wrong that it “only covers news, promotion, reviews, and . . . non-profit.” Fair use policy covers a heck of a lot more than that.

What I am looking for is somebody that would say, “I will do this for you if you can prove (a) its okay, (b) you have permission, or (3) it will be untraceable.” So far, I have spent days on here and I don’t even know if anybody can do this.

I am enjoying the conversation with you all but I do have a job to get too.

I don’t understand why there is so much resistance here

If you think this is bad you should check out the other arguments they have on here in the forums! oh boy!

As Penguinboy said by quoting the 'EULA' from LoL, you may not do this without permission, period. If you have permission, prove it and then you might get someone.

If I were to send an email to Riot simply asking:

"Machinima are searching for a freelancer to port models from League of Legends into the Source engine for use in a Machinima series. Have you given them express permission to do so?"

Will they say Yes or No? It is a simple question that requires a one word answer and nothing more.

Yeah if you have express written permission i could recreate the level in hammer.
But i would need models, materials, at least 2 weeks of construction time etc...
And i'm assuming the world is a giant model anyway so that might just be a waste of time.

Hell; have you tried asking Riot for the models?

NineTnine – lol. But why would somebody want to become a part of a community with such negativity?

Hotdog – How would the respond? That would be interesting to find out. My guess would be that they would respond . . . “okay??? . . . . ???? . . . . why are you telling us this?”

Tetsu – thanks for the honesty – it is much appreciated. I asked my boss and he didn’t think this project was important enough to utilize the entire ladders to get permission. That doesn’t mean I can’t try to get permission myself though. If I get permission, I will come and find you.

Why do you seem to be dodging perfectly reasonable questions? If you really are a professional, I fail to see how asking for permission and showing proof would really be that much of a problem. Also if you think we're a negative community for asking for proof so we don't get legal action taken against us then... Wow.

From your response, I have determined that you, in fact, have NOT made contact with Riot Games, they have NOT given you explicit permission to use their assets which in turn is the exception to the EULA that would make your request legal.

I have sent an email to Riot Games, hopefully they will respond and that will clear this mess up. Took me 5 minutes to send an email, yet you've spent days to write replies on forums.

Also, with your reference to Red vs Blue, I've watched their 'Behind the Scenes' videos. They did not have permission to use Halo assets, then, when they saw that their video was receiving traffic from Microsoft and Bungie, they were shitting themselves because they could have taken legal action.

They got lucky, and Microsoft and Bungie liked it.

What you are asking is not a case of 'Can they sue us?', because they can. It is a case of 'If they sue us?'. Ultimately, yes, they may like your series and let it slide, but if they don't, they can and will sue you or issue you with a 'Cease and Desist'.

I live in Australia. In accordance with Australia's Copyright Act 1968 which was required to be amended when Australia signed the Free Trade Agreement in 2006, if I took and completed this job for you and Riot undertook legal proceedings against you. I would be vulnerable as a freelancer and I would be subject to hefty fines of up to $20,000 and possible prison time.

You make a few promises there in regards to this. You claim to keep me anonymous, but if a court orders you to tell them who did it, you'll have to either say you did (and you'll face the fines and imprisonment) or I did, hence dobbing me in anyway. If you don't, you'll be held in contempt and face additional charges. You've promised that Machinima will protect me, but unless I sign a binding contract with Machinima, I only have your word for this. I'm not saying they'll break their promise, but you're asking me to trust a complete stranger who is not a representative for their company.

I am well versed in Australian Law, it is a huge part of my job that I must always operate with the legal boundaries set by my Government. We have more red tape than most other industries and I am even required to undertake many training sessions regarding said legal boundaries every year.

In any case, I have sent an email to Riot Games. I have also sent an email to Machinima to confirm that they have actually authorized this, since it is them who have a 'positive relationship' with Riot and not you.

I'll be back in a few days, I'll update when I can.

pops into thread

“I will do this for you if you can prove (a) its okay, (b) you have permission, or (3) it will be untraceable.”

A, B, and 3 . . .

Sorry, just thought that was funny.

pops back out of thread

Hotdog,

-I never said Red vs Blue had permission. I am aware Bungie had no idea at first. They did eventually find out though. Bungie gave them all the contents of Halo Reach before the game was even out so they could use it in their machinimation.

-If Riot tried to sue Machinima it’s not as simple as “bam, lawsuit.” That would be passing the entire courtcase. Obviously Machinima’s legal team would argue for fair use and the courts would have to look at the case and evaluate it based on the four factors and then look at related court cases and the decisions that were made. The four factors would be very important to know to really understand the basis of my argument.

-Let me know if Riot responds to your email. I am very interested to know if they respond.

-Also, let me know if Machinima responds. I doubt they will but if they do I would be interested in how the secretary who knows nothing about what is in production would respond.

-Once you clear all this up, I look forward to working with you.

Obviously Machinima’s legal team would argue for fair use and the courts would have to look at the case (...)

Fair use is only ever valid if the works are not used to gain profit. Machinima is a company, and as such, has to survive by making profit off something. Profit is made, so I just voided your fair use argument. I'm sure any informed lawyer could come up with this and more in five minutes.

Your intentions may be legitimate and you may indeed be a naive and misguided producer, but this looks more like a plead. I am getting tired of reading you giving long, vague answers to questions that require a sentence at most. You may be serious, but you're not being professional. Get down to business already, do what you're supposed to do, but stop wasting everyone's time with unclear answers.

Disco,

You said, "fair use is only ever valid if the works are not used to gain profit." That is actually not true at all. Not at all whatsoever! I mean no offense but you obviously don't know anything about fair use laws. I'm assuming you do not live in the U.S. - we have very specific fair use laws that are very different from your understanding.

Now, you have no reason to be rude to me. You suggest that I "get down to business." This is a legitimate business offer - not a plead. I can't get down to business without a consultant to do business with. If you think I have been unclear with any of my answers - let me know which ones and I would be happy to give you a more clear response.

Wait a minute. The way you put it is that Fair use would allow me to decompile models from LoL make a half-life mod using those models and then sell it, but to be fair i should not intend to make too much money.
Since the models you decompile belong to Riot and you are not the author of them neither are you licensed to use them, you can only use them for personal reasons which are strictly non profit and i repeat NON PROFIT that includes ad revenue.
I fail to see US would allow such things to happen when they already have fairly restrictive copyright laws.
Prove me wrong, link me up to some laws.

America has a parody clause that would maybe be loosely relevant, but it doesn't exist to cover stolen content. It's more for parodies to use the likeness of copyrighted content. While there is room for situational interpretation, Fair Use exists for the reasons I listed in my previous post and does not cover this.

The untraceable balloon continues to inflate.

Wow, you gonna go to $500?Seriously, money is just a joke and I feel it is an insult if you raise price for someone to do something for you. I learnt nearly everything from "GOOGLE". You heard about it?

Google Inc. is an American multinational corporation specializing in Internet-related services and products. These include search, cloud computing, software, and online advertising technologies

Here's the link:
https://www.google.com/

Another search:
https://www.google.com/#q=how+to+decompile+League+of+legends+models&safe=off&spell=1

Prop from 3ds max to source:
https://www.google.com/#q=3ds+max+to+source&safe=off

Wallworm model tools for source:
http://dev.wallworm.com/topic/2/wall_worm_model_tools.html

Valve documentation:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SDK_Docs

Youtube result search:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=3ds+max+to+source&oq=3ds+max+to+source&gs_l=youtube.3..33i21.628.3248.0.3526.17.15.0.0.0.0.195.1539.5j8.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.0FdxWjanks4

How to model in 3ds max:
https://www.google.com/#q=How+to+model+in+3ds+max&safe=off

My suggestion:

Learn this stuff, take a month or year to ace your skills, or do another project in the mean while. Paying anyone ANYTHING won't get you no whereTrust me, you know how many offers we've had from people like you?It's depressing...

So yeah, all in all, do research, keep your money, preferably take it and shove it, and have fun LEARNING and ENJOYING the art of modding. Don't steal stuff but MAKE your own. Even if its crap, it's still yours and your trail and error and development. EVERYTHING AROUND THE WORLD TAKES PRACTICE.

Ima help only that much, and come to think about it, I gave you good stuff, but I'm sure your gonna ignore all this and come back at me with a crappy reply so I'm just gonna give you this right now:along with this one when you give up and leave our site:

[i]Haisha!!! X3[/i]

(PS, still friendly yo, I helped a lot in this, now, where's my 2 AED or 2 Dirhams?)

Just try the facepunch forums, you will only get trolled here evidently.