Dunce Americans Created 18 years ago2006-04-08 11:58:23 UTC by satchmo

talking about guns in america, watch bowling for columbine (or whatever its spelled)

"I'd like to open a bank account please"
sure, which one?"
"uhh...the one where you get a free gun"

ROFL.

Be careful with Moore's films. Although he does raise a good few points, a lot of his stuff is cleverly edited to give you a false image.

The whole gun rule thing in America is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that Queen Elizabeth II is gonna march into the US and steal it!

What gun rule thing?

But you'd rather keep generalizing, maintaining the status quo, right?

Yeah... that's exactly what I'm doing by... arguing against the status quo.

Your gun rights is the cause of the extreme high amount of armed crime in the states. Compare to other countries of equal size.

If your not a fucking terrorist, you have nothing to fear from the Patriot Act. Profiling? Hell yes I'm all for profiling.

'Cept if you're a middle eastern shop owner. Stamp them for TERRORIST!!1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the patriot act gives the state right to undergo extensive surveilance and even detain people based on loose suspicions of terrorism?
I wouldn't trust any government to have such rights.

The fact that you're allowed firearms for no good reason, Rowley. Utterly pathetic.

Your gun rights is the cause of the extreme high amount of armed crime in the states.

Simply not ture.

undergo extensive surveilance and even detain people based on loose suspicions of terrorism?

They could always do that in the name of national security, The Patriot act just makes it easier. If the rights of Middle-Easterners are infringed in the process, it's regrettable, but we have to protect ourselves. When 19-year-old white girls start suicide bombing, then I guess we'll have to pay closer attention to them as well.

Seventh: 'Meant your status quo. It seems hip nowadays to be Libby and left.

You're still ignoring all my previous counterpoints to your previous accusations, and instead leaving a half-sentence bullshit reply...see "Cop Out".

If your going to make these accusations you should back them up when your called out

The fact that you're allowed firearms for no good reason, Rowley. Utterly pathetic.

Entirely your opinion even if it's totally wrong. From Aussies I've talked to, you guys have even stricter gun control than the Brits. I suppose I'd try to make the same claim if my government didn't allow me to own a gun.

There are plenty of good reasons to own a gun. Personal defense, Hunting, Sport shooting, competetive target shooting, etc. It's our Right. If you want to call our Rights utterly pathetic, well then go ahead.

So how else would you explain the sickly high amount of deaths caused by murder in the US compared to other countries?

Why the fuck do you need a gun? We have strict gun controls yeah. We also have lower gun related deaths FOR SOME STRANGE REASON. As for those shitty reasons you listed, we can still do that by joining a club. We either use the guns they keep there, or we purchase our own which is kept at the club. Personal defence is just a load of crap.

The right to own and bear arms is preeminent to our culture. I don't have the stats on hand, but per capita, I would guess a more realistic appraisal then yours would show the amount of violent crimes comitted with firearms turns out to be a tiny fraction of a fraction of a percent.

My previous post encapsulates how I feel about this:

What really needs to change in America are the penalties/enforcement for gun-related crimes. Make them harsh enough, and the small percentage of criminals who use guns to commit crimes will decrease still.

I would include "accidents" in this legislation for morons like Dick Cheney, and those who allow their children access to their guns--Columbine. This would also make people more responsible and serious about gun safety.

Punish the offenders, not the 99.9999999% of people that are responisble and abide the law with their firearms. Hold those accountable, accountable.

The right to own and bear arms comes from a stupid Constitution law which arose out of the fear that Britain would invade the US.

Here's the problem, Rowley: you're looking at this entirely from a perspective that you've been accustomed to. When you look at something with a fresh perspective (i.e. someone who hasn't been brought with the "American Dream" ideal) you can see how totally ludicrous (and somewhat amusing) your various laws are.

That's like, your opinion man.

Calling our laws ludicrous for the sake of being ludicrous, is...ludicrous

They could always do that in the name of national security, The Patriot act just makes it easier. If the rights of Middle-Easterners are infringed in the process, it's regrettable

Oh, I'm sure the victims are greatly heartened by your pity.

Meant your status quo. It seems hip nowadays to be Libby and left.

Er, I thought you were the one claiming to be all for freedom of the individual?

You're still ignoring all my previous counterpoints to your previous accusations, and instead leaving a half-sentence bullshit reply...see "Cop Out".

I just can't be bothered and don't have time to read all the comments and match them up with responses. It's a pretty big thread with a hell of a lot of content.

The right to own and bear arms is preeminent to our culture.

Weren't you just the one complaining about supporting the status quo, too?

DOWN WITH PROGRESS, eh?

...

That makes absolutely no sense and you know it. I'm looking at this purely from a viewpoint where I haven't been blatantly exposed to it. Funnily enough, my opinion seems to be shared amongst many.

I can't see America as anything else but a gigantic bully. Hell, we're probably steps away from Nuclear War at the moment...

I just can't be bothered and don't have time to read all the comments and match them up with responses. It's a pretty big thread with a hell of a lot of content.

You don't have time to back up your accusations, but you have time to make them. Cop out and very convenient.

DOWN WITH PROGRESS, eh?

Your claim, that an elightend society needs not guns, not mine.

Oh, I'm sure the victims are greatly heartened by your pity.

No system is perfect. We'll do what we have to, and not be ashamed by it.

No system is perfect, but you don't seem to be making any improvements to it.

You can invent the "terrorist detector", then nobody will be falsely imprisoned.

Your kinda reaching now Ant, really, some more substantive points might be in order...

More facts, less inflammatory opinion

RowleyBob, there was 16590 deaths caused by homicide and injury purposely inflicted by other in the US, year 2000. My guess is this would be a lot lower compared if the gun laws were a fair bit more restrictive, like in Britain or any other industrial country, really. Compare the deaths statistics to other countries.

Your kinda reaching now Ant, really, some more substantive points might be in order...

I think the fact that you've supplied us with absolutely none says something.

you need an automatic rifle to take down todays breeds of super-deer

Ahaha

ZL: Per population in the 200,000,000's at that time, 17,000 people is a tiny drop in the proverbial bucket.

Ant: Again your opinion. If you going to disagree, at least put something on the table.

17,000 people is tiny?

How insensitive can you get?! That's 17, 000 people WHO ARE NO LONGER LIVING. That's one of the most awful things I've read, and all because some people love to own guns! Now I truly know how fucked your country is!

In a country of 230,000,000--at that time--, you bet your ass.

God, you're so fucking insensitive. Now I see how you "justify" the wars in Iraq and in Vietnan.

Ant, this child is not capable of rational thought. Just leave it.

I never endorsed the war in Vietnam, since i wasn't even born

Zombie: Would you mind posting where you found those stats?

Seventh: Ouch! Were resorting to name calling now, sweet!

I recall reading that America's prisons are quite horrible rated on amnesty international's list.

America really isnt in decline. We do have dept, but so does every other country. France and Germany are still in dept to us from WW1! Theres no point bringing up these stupid little things from the past.

Dept, your talking about a dept here? Do you have any fucking cleu what happend before and after both wars? I highly doubt it. Otherwise you would have know that the incredible raping of germany after WWI caused people to believe in people like Hitler.

Zombie found those stats on the WHO website. That's the World Health Organisation.

As for the Vietnam war, I bet you agree with the US' principle of the Domino Effect and the "threat of communism", right?

The World Health Organization - a huge, corporate, american org. They're probably downing the numbers.

Anyway, the population in the US is 298,444,215, just to clarify. (Wtf, american citizens should know this : )

The murder rate per thousand citizens in the US is 0,0533 (0,05%) in the US, 0,0088(0,008%) in Sweden. Quite a large jump.

298,444,215

Um not in 2000, ass. Insert apology <here>

We can go hunting in the UK, you get a licence, get a quick show of how your gun works etc etc, then you can go hunting. Hundreds of farmers own shotguns and rifles in our country, because they use them to kill vermin.

However, letting civillians in dencly packed urban areas buy guns as they please for no given reason is dangerous. You say you need a gun for self defence? Defence against what? Another person with a gun? Dont you think he wouldnt have a gun if the laws were more strict.

Now, I am not telling you how to live, if the majority of your country wants to own guns then thats fine, who am I to tell you what to do. But you have to see the point that people are making here, guns are built to kill, you start selling guns in the mainstream and what do you think will happen? Everyone will live in peace because they know every person on their street is armed? The worst thing about having a gun is being tempted to use it.

If your not a fucking terrorist, you have nothing to fear from the Patriot Act.

Not true. Lots of completly peaceful people were taken by the US to Guantanimo Bay (spelling), imprisoned and tortured for three years. THREE YEARS OF TORTURE, Juse because they had a certain faith. It seems to me America is breeding a culture of paranoia, where you think everyone is out to get you, that isnt so. Everyone might dislike you, even hat you, but that doesnt mean they are going to strap C4 around their chests and run at you screaming praise to some god.

Terrorists are a very small minority, true terrorist that is. The US government would have you belive that every person in Iraq holding a gun is a terrorist. But now, lets look at this from another point of view. If my country were invaded by a foreign force, and they started blowing up buildings and shooting people, YES I would take up arms. Not because I belived in a religion and not because of who the people were or where they came from. Simply because I would be defending my homeland.

A lot of America soldiers say they would die for their country, and that is the exact same thing that the people of Iraq think. They are just defending their homes and there land and we brand them as terrorists. Certainly, when those few flew the planes into the twin towers, that wasnt defence. But that was a small few, a very small minority. The US has to realise that you cant just use brute force to solve all its problems.

If you were to continue the train of though that terrorists are everywhere, why not just nuke the planet? Hmm? Cant be too sure, nuke everything so that the US is the only country left standing. Its the only way to be sure we got them all, seeing as there are only a few hundred proper terrorists in the world, who do shit like 9/11. Sure, we wasted six billion other inncocent people, but hey, it was a worthy sacrafice?

It seems funny doesnt it? That last paragraph, but now convey that over to Iraq, the country is, nay, has broken out into civil war. Thats a whole country you have wrecked to satisfy your own countrys lust for Oil and revenge. HENCE, the US is a big bully. Now I am trying to look at this from another angle, and see it a different way, but frankly I cant. If you can, please tell me so that I may take it also into consideration.

Good points.

ZL: You have a population of 9,000,000, so it's not really any sort of valid comparison.

imprisoned and tortured for three years.

Isolated incidents of torture, not the norm.

Otherwise good points, except you lost me at the end.

How is it not a valid comparison? The numbers of Deaths / population stays the same.

Um not in 2000, ass. Insert apology <here>

You're saying the US population increased by 98 million in 6 years?
hahahhahahahahahha
haha
haha.

ohhh my head hurts and i didnt even read anything between this post and my last one

You're saying the US population increased by 98 million in 6 years?
hahahhahahahahahha
haha
haha.

<actually laughs out loud>

Iran... Iraq... Ireland!

Hide, Mephs!

No. I would guess your percentages would rise directly with the size of your country. Too many dynamics to accurately predict, but that would be my guess.

You're saying the US population increased by 98 million in 6 years?

For some reason I was under the impression it was around the 230's around that time, but I don't have any numbers currently to compare. Howver, it wasn't 298 million in 2000.

No. I would guess your percentages would rise directly with the size of your country. Too many dynamics to accurately predict, but that would be my guess.

Nonsense. So people get more... violent if there are more people living in the country?
The deaths per citizen is still accurate.

In the UK, 529 people were murdered in 2000. That's 0.008% per 1000 citizens.

In Australia, 303 people were murdered. That's 0.015% per 1000 citizens.

Both are significantly lower than the US's numbers, and they both have stricter regulations.

In china, 58 people of 1,313,973,713 were murdered - this is obviously not true, the chinamen are lying. Still if it were...

Rowleybob: I'm using current population numbers from the CIA, on all countries. The results should be fairly precise. A country's population doesn't increase much in 6 years.

Our population is over 4 times bigger than the UK, and I have no idea what it is for Australia.

It's not that simple Zombie. My claim is that we're so much bigger, you can't compare them per 1000 people. The net population is a factor you're conveniently avoiding.

[quote]Rowleybob: I'm using current population numbers from the CIA, on all countries. The results should be fairly precise. A country's population doesn't increase much in 6 years.
[quote]

Are you mad?

Isolated incidents of torture, not the norm.

Your right, its not the norm, its only in America. And its not just a few guys who got tortured, ALL OF THEM DID. What do you think Guantanimo bay is? A holdiay camp where they sit around a fire roasting marsh mellows and singing Cum-bi-ah all night? Open your eyes.

It's not that simple Zombie. My claim is that we're so much bigger, you can't compare them per 1000 people. The net population is a factor you're conveniently avoiding.

Er... do you not understand "per 1000 people"?

Yeah, deaths per thousand citizens remains the same no matter how big the country is... I don't see your point..?

Not true. Lots of completly peaceful people were taken by the US to Guantanimo Bay (spelling), imprisoned and tortured for three years. THREE YEARS OF TORTURE, Juse because they had a certain faith.

That's what I was trying to say Americans seem to have trouble acknowledging this as pure fascism.

Pennboy: Your a fuckin idiot. You must be some kind of dumbass in remedial classes, or something, because our High school education is fine. We have college prep classes, high levels of math, etc. Fighting has nothing to do with education. Children in high school fight. Its as simple as that. Their idiots, but their not stupid as far as education goes.

Gun control: Freedom must be absolute. No exceptions. It is these exceptions which corrupts the system over time. Some laws though are there to protect. The patriot act does inhibit certain freedoms, but to protect the good. If you cant understand that, your an itiot.

READ "The Republic" by Plato. Alot of these stupid arguments you people have are addressed in that book.

Torture: We never torture, EVER! Our democracy and government (does have flaws) is the most logical and efficient. We never kill on sight. Many soldiers were killed in Iraq because they were not sure if the enemy was a civilian, or soldier. (There are people who torture, but they are punished in our country, and not associated with our beliefs)

As I said before, your anger is so illogical. All of you are going along with what you see and hear from others and the media. Your finding meaningless arguments to try to justify some argument that is without meaning or purpose.

The fact is we are the greatest country, strongest, and most advanced. Were almost perfect in every way. Of course your anger for us is understandable. You wish you were us. Too bad. You can dream though................

LOL, btw does any of your countries get immigrants? I mean is America so great that we actually have thousands sneaking in to get some of our greatness? Never heard of people flocking to Britain...........

Go ahead, I dare you to try to counter this argument!

Man, xyos, you have so much bullshit in your post it's hard to read.

First of all...

Gun control: Freedom must be absolute. No exceptions... Some laws though are there to protect. The patriot act does inhibit certain freedoms, but to protect the good.

Biggest contradiction EVER. What the hell do you think gun restrictions are there for? Of course they're there to protect the society itself! It's bloody proven, higher gun restrictions -> Less crime! The patriot act hardly protects the citizens of the US as much as it offers the government control over it's people.

Torture: We never torture, EVER!

Physical torture isn't the only torture. Mental torture can be as painful to endure, especially if you're put through it for years, without even being accused of something. There have been cases where the US military have physically tortured prisoners... Try Googling it.

The fact is we are the greatest country, strongest, and most advanced. Were almost perfect in every way. Of course your anger for us is understandable. You wish you were us. Too bad. You can dream though................

Ohmigosh the arrogance! Everyone's written like ten times in this thread that we don't want to live in america - I repeat: America offers me nothing.
The fact that you have the strongest military and one of the strongest economical powers in the world is irrelevant to whether or not one's jealous of you - the fact that the US govt. is run by jacktards plays a bigger role.

LOL, btw does any of your countries get immigrants? I mean is America so great that we actually have thousands sneaking in to get some of our greatness? Never heard of people flocking to Britain...........

Sweden accepts several thousands immigrants per year, alot more than our Scandinavian neighbours.

Also, never heard of people flocking to Britain? There're thousands of immigrants emigrating to britain every year - in fact this is the case with all industrial countries - america isn't uniqe with this in any way.

Also, about highschool education... there're quite a lot of spelling and/or grammer errors in your post (and mine too, most probably) - perhaps your education isn't as great as you claim, atleast the English bit?

Thank you for that ZL.

Xyos, let me guess you are a.... born again Christian?

Now, I've heard of of patriotism before but what you've just done can only be described in my opinion, as
Bush-administration cock-sucking.

I would go through and tell you why each of your points are total BS but Loffe's already done an excellent job.

Is it just me who has been noticing an extreme increase in total idiots lately? We really shouldn't be having this argument, it's plain obvious.

Also, never heard of people flocking to Britain? There're thousands of immigrants emigrating to britain every year - in fact this is the case with all industrial countries - america isn't uniqe with this in any way.

Indeed. In 2004, 140 000 people emigrated to Britain.

Well, ZL's already ripped apart everything else and is representative of pretty much everyone's opinions, including mine, so I have little else to say.

Incidentally, in ZL's linguistic defence, he's five years younger than you and Swedish.

You guys are just finding litle things to pick at. The spelling errors in someone's post don't reflect their english ability, maybe they were typing fast hmm? Someone above said our country was perfect...uhm.i live in the US, it's a great place to live, but it's far from perfect. The perfect country imo would be like...canada...or ireland or something. Definately not the US.

Oh yeah, and just because we have lots of immigrants doesn't mean they are good. Too many mexicans...

I really dont care about your little "fun" facts about some other countries.

fourthgen: Your a fuckin moron for assuming anything about me based on a forum post. I believe in philosophy, not religion. What you said ZL is false. Its a belief on gun control looked through by the eyes of an idiot who cant see the big picture. Theres no arguement with you people. Your too arrogant to accept that America is not dumb. We are intelligent, and strong. Its a fact. Your little contradictions mean nothing. Physical proof is everything. America is living example of that. So go back to your little pitaful beliefs and think we are inferior. GO BACK TO YOUR CAVE AND STARE AT SHADOWS!

(If anyone got that last line, its a powerful philosophical theroy. PWNED)

BTW that last line about me ranting about our perfection was just to entice anger I know were not perfect, but we try.

That was one of the worst retorts ever. While ours are actually logical, you pretty much just call everyone an idiot for not sharing your point of view. Offer some arguments.

I'd say hard statistics count as physical proof.