Incredibly ignorant or plainly stupid Created 19 years ago2005-11-08 12:57:09 UTC by pepper

As most of you probably know there are heavy riots in France, it started by now 12 days ago deu to the police chasing down 2 kids. Unfortunately for them they hid in a transistor room, thus being electrocuted. Now this may not look as a big deal to you, but it was to many kids down there.

As far as what i have picked up from the news and other sources show me that the neighbourhoods are really decaying in wich the riots broke lose, the french governement started the ghetto forming down there 20-30 years ago in the decades of the imigrating workers. Now this may not look like a big deal again, but these people live in rather poor situations. They feel betrayed and forgotten. And now, 30 years of rage is breaking out, the only thing i fear is that they wont get any good attention on the situation.

This doesnt discribe the topic name yet, let me explain on, shant we?

This morning, after smashing my alarm clock for waking me up i strawled downstairs for breakfast, following my usual rythme i came down to the news, so i flipped on the tv and changed the channel.

After a couple of minutes it showed a american news paper, i believe it was the chicago or the new york times, not sure on that though.

The thing that struck me the most was the hughe title if showed:

Europe: Wake up, its war

Now this set me on fire, literaly. It showed a awfull lot of ignorance to the situation for me, in school im working on a subject showing on how city's are build up at all sides, including population. The title showed me imediatly that someone saw a picture/movie of the riots all over france and decided to make some splashy headline of it. Is it just me or can one be so extremely ignorant? How does the other media show's this in America? I wonder what those people where thinking, really......

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I beleive they are stupid and they are trying to get more readers, many people will read that article cause those words.

No difference with European media, if you ask me... media is just one big bunch of fakeness with a few exceptions here and there.

Woah.. Wake up Europe, it's war..
So the riots started because of 2 kids getting electrocuted?
And a newspaper considers this as war?

Man.. Somehow I'm not so surprised, pepper. The american media will do anything to get more readers/audience, etc. Even if that thins is so fucking low and ignorant.. :
They wanna make scandals out of nothing and it's scandals that attract the most readers.

It's a well known fact that Americans know little of the world outside the states, so i'm not surprised. Besides, as Elon said, the newspaper is only looking to get more readers, the truth of the situation is irrelevant.

Its no different in the UK in my view. Most people here are natural born jerks.
I wish I lived in Sweden or other places where there isn't as much crime and hate.

Some people always think that other countries are great and that the country they live in suck, well you're all wrong then.(I was refering mainly to 4thgen)

The Guardian (Scotland, UK)
FRENCH POODLES BEWARE

Heh.

Daubster: The riots are really getting out of hand and spreading to other cities. Calling this a civil war wouldn't be entirely incorrect.

But then again, media. They have a way of blowing things up into huge stories, especially the americans.
The thing that, quite so annoys me, is that americans seem to think Europe is a country.
Why the fuck should we care what's going on in France, even though we live on the same continent? It's their problem.
It's not like Swedish media would go "North America: Wake up, It's war" if some rioting started in Canada.

Some people always think that other countries are great and that the country they live in suck, well you're all wrong then.

Heh, it's true. the graas iz more of green on the side wot u r not in!!!

It's not like Swedish media would go "North America: Wake up, It's war" if some rioting started in Canada.

Heheheh. Canada riots, eh?

So............Will one of you people who lives in France please explain how bad it really is. Heres what I have heard:

• The riots started in Paris. They spread and are getting very violent.

Thats just about it. But from the tone of the media it seems like it is very bad.

In Turkey ,we heard it like this

-2 muslim kids has been shot by france police while kids where trying to escape.

???

Those were the rumours going around when the rioting started, iirc. Everyone thought the police had shot a pair of kids escaping. In truth, they hid beneath some electrical jiffy and got electrocuted.
It's like the bastille all over again.

ah good. another "war" i get to profiteer from.

and this has a 1/4 chance of becomeing a civil war if you really think about it. its not that far fetched.

Well, here ya go, an American's perspective...

I obviously know that the riots were going on, though I really did not know the cause, and still do not fully understand what its all about... You have to keep in mind that America is isolated over here... we have Mexico, Canada...

Besides, our Media is not really... well... over there...

Now as to the Newpaper headline...

I recieve the Chicago Tribune, and I saw nothing in there saying it was a war...

Yes, I do hate the American Media, but you have to keep in mind that its a buisness. Its a company... and whats a company's goal? MONEY!!!

so... Obviously... As Elon said, they probably would only write something like that to attract attention to the newspaper.

Do not generalize America by our media, or what your media tells you... We're actually friendly people
Its that whole Protestant influence.

oh, and as I understand it, this is more of a "race" type riot, as the young Muslim population, which is obviously very large in France, has seen this incident as an act of racism.

Well, its a bad thing, and I hope it comes to an end soon, and I also hope the bloody media grows a concience and tapes the event to show the world...

Canada riots?


maybe Mexico...

It's a well known fact that Americans know little of the world outside the states, so i'm not surprised.

This is true... but please don't say its because we are "stupid"...

I'm sure there are plenty of moron in other countries, though I'd have to travel to be certain

What's with all the America-bashing? America rocks. Besides, the media suck everywhere, not just in the states.

stfu and stop bitching.

I live in France, 200 Kms from Paris, and may give you my point of view about that if you need it :

_actually, 2 maybe 12-15 years old kids climbed a wall that might be 4 meters tall to escape from policemen. Actually nobody exactly know what these kids did to be chased that way, nobody know what really wanted the policemen, and nobody know how 15 years old max kids succeeded to climb a wall twice taller than them (we seen the wall on TV, come on, I can directly jump on a table, but really doubt I would be able to climb that security wall : how the hell did they manage to do that ?). Everybody (kids and policemen) look like to have a part of the truth to not be revealed in this affair, nobody is innocent ...

_the deathes of these poor boys are just a pretext to most rioters : they are obviously manipulated by higher and secret people, because all riots have clear targets : workers cars (neighbors who still have a job a need their car to go to work), nursery schools, buses ... somebody may take advantages of the decrease of the public services in these districts. I don't get who and how ...

This affair is a crazy stupidity race :
_kids in the street (people who have 12-15 years old in the street at 00:00 o'clock) talking about destroying everything because they feel discriminated, they have no job etc (I am unemployed for six years now, wtf would be the point to attack district buses ?)
_policemen controlling everybody everytime (checking identity card etc, young people they call with their name they checked 2 hours ago) talking about send them burn in the electricity room if they aren't ok,
_international medias who all use this situation for their own business : english medias laughing at the french way of life (liberty, egality etc), american medias talking about war and displaying a crazy map of the France, with cities hundreds of miles away from their real locations (man, they even put some cities out of France), chinese medias talking about the brave firemen fighting against burning cars and buses, the government fighting for the people security etc. These districts are actually a playground for the whole world ...

Sounds like HL2 actually

HL2 = dictature, France = actually anarchy, this is not the same thing ...

Currently, nobody known can control these rioters : government, muslim leaders, even parents and cops are just like "please stop do that !" and just good to stop fires ...

But it isn't the "war" in the country : I live in a (too) peaceful town where I didn't heard about serious troubles for almost ten years ...

i was referring to;

policemen controlling everybody everytime (checking identity card etc)

oh, ok, but the description I did isn't complete : cops are controlling only suburbs kids, I have never been controlled for example (never ever, and I am twice older than most of them, but don't got the "suburb look"), these people say cops make them crazy controlling them twice everyday, calling them with their names (which definitely prove they already know who they are), and some cops admitted (on hidden cam) the more the situation will be worse and the more they will be ok (because they will have work, promotions, be able to hit kids etc <=== this is my opinion) ...

As long as they stay away from A... my favorite French singer.

George Bush's police state seems to be expanding.

We're actually friendly people
Its that whole Protestant influence.

By bashing another religion you just proved your friendlyness. The biggest religion in the lower and germainic countries is protestantism / Lutherism and we're quite friendly people too, thankyouverymuch! Personally, the only religion I believe in is my own and I still find people who don't share my 'religion' friendly people. I suppose I'm just odd like that, huh?

And the media; the media, no matter what they claim, are never objective and will always twist and turn the facts into their likings. A few governments here and there will also feel free to throw in a bit of cencorship of propaganda. (Most noticably China and the US. The US obviously to a lesser extend and more subtle than China.) The European media also proved their 'objectiveness' (HAH!) during the various referendums (if the member states even held those!) about the European constitution.

Two examples; The Dutch media was more of a massive 'vote-yes' propaganda machine and in Germany there even wasn't a referendum, the government simply decided for their people on such an important subject. Ain't democracy nice? True democracy; the people decide. Parlemantary democracies; you vote for your favorite chap and just pray that he does even a few things according to your liking and / or like he promised.

</rant>

And France riots? I would've sent in the army with a shoot-to-kill policiy on day five. But hey, that's just me!

Just a word on this riot thing. I lived in Paris for two years and I can tell you that some people DONT want to adjust themselves to the country they are in. In my opinion, when you go to some country to have a better life than what you had in your native land, you need to put a bit of effort from your part and adapt your behaviour somehow. I'm not saying that foreigners should have to abandon their religions or anything like that, but they have to understand that there is something that made their countries fail (that's why they left) and they are bringing a little bit of that something into the countries they go to.
Kids have been burning cars in Saint-Denis for a very long time now (not that many cars at the same time, of course). It seems a very ungrateful thing to do to the country that let you in and gave you work.
Some of these people are complaining that they are treated differently, somehow discriminated just by their race. They are throwing rocks at their own roof, since all this just shows us that they are indeed different, uncapable of civilized behaviour etc etc.
I hope I dont offend anyone, but that's the way things are.

Ridiculously I've never been further than England, so I can't start my statements like Kasberg. He is, however correct. If you're imposing yourself on someone elses land you should at LEAST speak the language fluently. Personally I'm one of the few people that WANT illegal immigrants in britain and northern ireland. yet I feel that you should be detained untill you can at least live day to day live in the native tongue. Failure to do so, in my opinion is as much a contributor as poverty in ghettoising certain communities.

As far as France goes, my cousin was ignored for ages in Paris even though he spoke perfect French, eventually he pulled a man aside and told him that he wasn't English, he was Northern Irish! This seems to work wonders, and people he tells this to welcome him with open arms. Its a shame that he must apologise and correct people all the time though.

Concerning the riots; France's propaganda about being SO Democratic (strangely enough) doesn't quite hold true. If there is serious racism or the prejudices my parents had to put up with right now in France, I say good luck to the protestors.

People think that just because something isn't front page news all the time it isn't severe. In fact, things which are sidelined for a long time such as France's own racial problems, need MORE addressing than front page stories. The media is instrumental in this; notice how since the government decided to get its hands dirty the media reports that the rioting decreases. This obviously isn't so. Its merely a way of stemming the enraged communities violence by telling them that everyone else has stopped.

It will probably work, though.

Not sure about that mephs, if there really is someone behind it pulling the strings then i dont think it will stop in such a way, it will probably stop.

they have to understand that there is something that made their countries fail (that's why they left) and they are bringing a little bit of that something into the countries they go to

The wisest thing said here for a long time.

they have to understand that there is something that made their countries fail (that's why they left) and they are bringing a little bit of that something into the countries they go to

This IS a very well made point, however I avoided it since my arguement is normally shouted down, and it meanders into all kinds of directions:

Whether you like it or not, black countries were part of empires at some stage not so long ago. Because they were taken over, rather than assimilated into western ideas (not to say that western doctrine is superior), when europe pulled out of these countries at last it wasnt a gradual and stable affair, it was more like pulling your clothes on in the middle of the night after proverbially fucking these nations and legging it. If you look at the hutu and tutsi situation, you'll see that the chips on excolonial countries was not of their own making. What a lot of these countries actually are left with are ex guerillas like mugabwe, a country that has a lot of its resources sucked out of it with kickbacks to leaders instead of proper revenue for a country, such as the DeBeirs diamonds etc.

Essentially the state of affairs in these nations is that the west went there, took it over, ran out, yet continue to bleed them dry with theft of resources and extortionate taxes on exports. The countries that you are inferring that have brought their collective chip on their shoulder into our green and pleasant european lands were screwed over and destabilised by us. You really can't have it both ways.

Mephs makes excellent points.

Kids have been burning cars in Saint-Denis for a very long time now (not that many cars at the same time, of course). It seems a very ungrateful thing to do to the country that let you in and gave you work.

How about kids born in the country their parents immigrated to? They're being treated like shit without ever having been in their parents' native country. I'd say that's why these kids are less than satisfyed. Indeed, burning cars and stores in the wrong way to go, but it's a way of acting out.
There're some major racistic behaviour on the, for instance, employment market, even here (and I'd wager a guess, it's the same in most european countries) against people who have different surnames or an accent.

Absolutely NOTHING is an excuse for burning other people's cars (in some cases poor people who dont own a garage). It is more than understandable that some people dont want to employ "car burners". Of course being an inmigrant doesnt mean you are a car burner, but that's the image these people are transmitting. Not the smartest thing to do IMO.

-"Hey, I'm civilized, I want a job!"
-"Sorry sir, I don't like your accent"
-"OK, I'll burn your car so you can see how civilized I am!!"

They're being treated like shit without ever having been in their parents' native country

As I explained before, some of these people DONT want to adjust themselves to the country they are in. They keep acting like they lived in a law-less land. You just cant go around doing whatever the heck you think is right and then expecting everyone to treat you like them.

If you want to be treated like them, start to behave like them.

Intolerant people DO NOT deserve to be treated with tolerance

Never said they did the right thing, just trying to show that racism does exist in modern societies :P.

the antiracism is definitely the thing that killed France : the arabs took the word for them, and totally disrupted its sense ... when strangers from italy, poland, spain etc came in France 30 or 40 years ago, there were no problems, they were all educated, they were all working etc, but when arabs came in France, the stupid government did several mistakes : 1?) let them gather their whole family 2?) give them money to stay at home (assedic) 3?) let them create the "antiracism".

what happened then is beyond any logic or dignity : arabs that wasn't good at school go break cars, insult and attack people etc, and the ones who were good become lawyers, reporters etc, and cover the bad ones : sure this is a caricature (most arabs are ok, but the worst part is really the worst part of the humanity on an other hand), but everytime there was a problem with an arab, the one who wasn't arab was a racist, no matter what was the problem. Until the last years, everything in France was supposed to belong to them, and the guy who disagree is a racist.

Nowadays in France, when you hear about a "racist", it is not a guy who doesn't like black people, it is not a guy who doesn't like poland people, asian or whatever etc, no, it is always a guy who doesn't like arabs, strange isn't it ?...

I am exagerating ? here is a little example : when I was 16, 15 years ago, there was a law that said "if you call an arab an arab, you got to pay (I don't exactly remember) 5.000 Frs (800 euros)", and I never seen any law on the other side. well, I may have been insulted of "son of a bitch" etc by young arabs maybe 15-30 times in my life (I am not often in the street, spend most of my time on my comp), and never insulted them in the street : 15 insult to a french = $0, k ... Some people in the government, the socialists, quickly understood arabs could be a good business for them : they told them "vote for us and we will protect you, enable you to do nothing and earn a lot of money". Here is one of the thing that killed France : most workers left for years because they were fed up to pay taxes for people who insulted them in the street, breaking their shop-windows, earning twice more than them without working etc, and now there are more people in France that ask for money than people to produce that money (in addition old people are more and more every years, and live longer, and students spent more time in schools, trying to get bigger diplomas) ...

that fucking french way of life, out of reality ...

Again, this is a caricature, but what I am trying to tell you is that until the last years, these kids in the suburbs were allowed to do anything, that was ok, just because they are arabs, poor, not educated etc, but now the government is trying to control that, to prevent them to break anything the want, they waited the first pretext to come to create a riot, telling to the cameras "the prime minister said that, then we are angry", but there is no relationship : they are stupid, they don't want to work, and they think everybody around owe something to them ...

this is a lost generation ...

again, this is a caricature : we saw on TV last days some ones of them who "succeeded" in life : they created a company, that is going fine etc, that's ok, that's great, but I don't think they represent a large part of those people ...

Everybody is wrong in this affair, and everybody got something to hide ...

More or less what I said, but based on a greater knowledge of the matter.
I hate people who break the law precisely because the law will protect them no matter what they do.
There's also a law in France (and maybe in other countries, I dont know) that forbids you to give a racial description while describing a robber, murderer etc. Supossedly, saying that the guy who took your phone is this or that would be a racist thing to do... That's STUPID. Police would want to have all the info on the person they have to look for. It is also a way to prevent something (which everyone knows) from appearing in statistics: a huge percentage of crimes are committed by this colective.

its probably worse here, if you break a buglars leg whilst hes robbing your house you have to pay him money for the rest of your live, its one hell of a twisted system.

you shouldnt believe everything the media tells you...

More or less what I said

oh sorry then, I may not well understood : I all the same read all your answers, but seemingly didn't get everything

I agree about cops, stats etc : antiracism may be as stupid and harmful than racism. I am a bit surprised to have people who have the same opinion than me about that, I was fearing a large "omg you racist !! arabs are good ! give them all your money, your girlfriend etc !", I may be too much intoxicated by all that "antiracism" around ...

To Pepper and Howdy : I already heard too about people who have to give money to burglars because they wounded them while they were in their houses ...

Do you know some (history and sociology) scientists suggested to call our era the "new middle age" ?...

Nice to see other views on this matter. Can't really share any personal experience on the matter (other than the fact that we've got lots of arabs around here), but I have been in paris 2 times, if that counts

I'm glad that everyone seems to have a sort of agreement with this subject.

(oh, and SEThorian, I am protestant...)

In my opinion, HL2 = social Darwinism... hence the whole "breeding" thing...

Kinda like a Hitler... cept the Combine didn't kill tons of innocent people for being a certain religion or race... as far as Gordon's visit is concerned...

Just a little poll question...
obvious answer...

Who here actually likes the Media, whether it be the American Media, or the bulk of European Media?

I don't...

Hey, El Reg is pretty good.

You primarily mean TV and the papers, though, I presume.

Yes, I mean television and Newspapers

well, public television news is okay, since they have a less egotistical goal.

Not all Media is bad... Im talking about Major Media...

Well, the proper morning newspapers and the Government-controlled TV news programs are sometimes quite good and to-the-point without taking sides.
The rest of the TV stations and all other newspapers are just fucking jokes, though.

I rearly read a news paper...it's so boring, I once read it but there were only very few intresting articles. Now everything is boring.

Wow nice thread to say us Americans are stupid. Can you say generalization? I'm clearly not the only person in America who pays attention to issues outside our country, and while yes, we do have a lot of idiots and fat people that doesn't mean that's what our entire country is like. I highly doubt a highly regarded paper such as the New York or Chicago times would print something like that as well.

This might be the first incidence of mass-rioting in France but it doesn't mean the conflict has been around for a while. If anyone else knows about the civil war in Algeria you'll know what I mean. There's a lot of arab folks there, who were colonial citizens of France who moved to the mainland following said war, and I guess the population still didn't regard them as true French citizens. So there's that background element of it. And yeah.

Thank you Rabid! Thank you so very much!

I agree wholehartedly...

Although I want to say that I too pay attention to issues outside our country...

I assume we are the only Americans you know... so every American you know pays attention to issues outside of our country... ... ...

^
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agree

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agree

Im sorry, i didnt mean to insult a whole population, more or less the author whom wrote it.

And yeah, colonialism got us europeans in a lot of trouble, you are the living proof of that. It created wars, only to rape the resources of a country even worse. Anyone whom denies that need to take a good look to the past. Fortunately all of the colonialism has ended recently for The Netherlands, but it has left its trace all over the world. luckily were on good foot now with old colonies, some still belong to the dtuch kingdom(own choice).

Simply put, all Americans, including myself, have a twisted view of everything, because of our biased media. It is just a battle for ratings, which means that you aren't going to get an important info or any info that isn't twisted and sugar-coated.

Colonialism is (was?) a very racistic ideology.

eh, maybe.

but us americans are generally stupid. take my health class in school for example. Im in the highest level my school offers, there are only 4 guys at that level in my health class. there are a few in the level below me, and the rest are the lowest level. and even though the level I consider people idiots under is low, i consider more then %50 of the class idiots. truely.