Null texture insanity! Created 19 years ago2005-11-30 08:42:17 UTC by Angryxhair

Was fooling around, creating an fy map for xmas...yeah I know, but I went totally balls to the walls with this thing architecturally, custom sequence lighting, realistic looking benches, skylights etc....

the downside was the r_speeds and the poly count. Soooo, here is what I did, and I wondered if anyone else here has done this.

I selected my entire map, save for the sky textures and textured it all to "null." I then retextured the entire thing anywhere it was visible to the player with the proper texturing. Needless to say it completely solved the r_speed issue. I've used null textures before on the undersides and backs of walls, but never to this extent.

Anyone here map completely with null textures and then fill in the spots with the regular textures?

Nope... Never used a null texture in my life accualy...

Um, no. That's a pretty bad idea, I imagine.

Well yes, that is what null textures are for.
They show the compiler, what surfaces to render. And if there are any textured surfaces that the player doesn't see - it's really good to texture it with the NULL texture to decrease poly counts.
Although your method isn't that good.. Just build the map with normal textures and then add the null textures to unseen surfaces..

Yeah, but you shouldn't depend on them entirely, Dauby. Faces touching the void are discarded anyway, as you can see if you noclip outside.

Yea, but most maps have unseen surfaces that aren't in the void..
Although a nulled surface doesn't decrease the r_speeds much.
The best method for that is hint brushes..

I only use null textures in faces unseen by the player. Since there arent that many in my maps, I rarely use them. As 7th said, some faces are automatically discarded unless you are building the map inside a big skybox. Which noone should.
In source mapping, I use the Nodraw texture much more often. Since I make buildings and 3D skyboxes in source, the amount of unseen faces in brushes not touching the void is much higher.

I map with null texture next to me.

The only difference is that i map optimized and not after i get r_speeds problems.

Angry: Hey if it reduced your wpolys, what the heck, go with it!

It seems like an idea to me, and I can't think of any negative effects that might result from it.

One way to check it it's necessary/beneficial, is to make your map, and then noclip out to see what's drawn and what isn't.

Then redo the map with your null everything method, and noclip again to check again to see what's drawn.

The method with the least rendered unusable stuff gets the prize!

The best method for that is hint brushes..

There are hint brushes in multiplayer games?? I thought everything was rendered at once.

yeah I usually take it easy on the poly count, but like I said this was an FY map, so it was tightly placed, or a high concentration of polys in a small area. I knew the centerpiece was going to be an issue ahead of time for lower end machines. The null thing I was referring to here came in handy because of the many unseen sides of stuff in the interior, multibevelled pillars, faceted pillar faces, benches, fountains, cylindrical planters. It's sometimes really hard in Hammer to get to all of the unseen faces after the fact, especially when dealing with aesthetic brushes, some 1-4x in size. Nulling them before hand makes it easier to access those sides without having to spin your view and zoom all over the place

I'll post a screenie in a bit to show ya why the r_speeds were an issue in this particular situation. It's running 1816 faces in a 656X656X428 hull in one section. When I played this on my low end gaming box, a 2.8ghz with an Geforce FX 5500, I dropped down to 30fps in the center. It ran fine on my Radeon box...heheh go figure. I don't think hint brushes would help in a situation like this, the hull is just too small.
I use hint brushes in my larger CS maps effectively.

angry i do the same exact thing sometimes... my current project is a dark hotel like building so null was a must... (only in this map i made the architecture out of null brushes and then mess with only the in-game visible textures) i guess its not always a good idea because i think my map is vinished then ill spot a small blurry spot in-game then have to go and fix it... like on cpl mill if u go into sewers and look up at one spot there was a visible null texture... i dont no if it was non-fixable or just a lazy mapper or maybe he didnt notice until thousands of people already downloaded it... just be careful

haha, I do that with everything. I always select the null texture, then create the walls, and texture them after, yes, It's a good idea, and works well.

u should have seen one of my maps b4 i knew about null... it actually compiled but in my own server i had 400 ping... and the rspeeds prolly just had an infinity sign

Null textures are good for unseen faces in func_walls for example. But sometimes it's not worth the effort.
About deathmatch rendering everything, Elon: Why would the game engine draw geometry differently because of one game parameter? Even though the gl_wireframe doesnt work in multiplayer, you can still see the r_speeds are the same. If multiplayer rendered everything at once I would map differently

Then why did ministeve said it is?

this time you wont have the luxury of things like HINT brushes to stop some parts of the map not being rendered, because on multiplayer games the whole map is rendered at the same time.

I always create everything as a null textured brush. then get it right. then texture the parts that will be visible.

Makes everything a whole lot better.

Reduced compile times. better R_speeds. And coupled with Hints you should be good.

take the Map Hunter sent me for the End Of Hostage Situation Camera sequence. its a small little thing. something that would normally take my computer about 30seconds to compile. Took 21 minutes, both because there was no use of null textures and a spot that pissed Vis off because of some messed up clip work.

I nulled and retextured everything, using a second copy I opened to get the textures from. cut it down to 5 minutes. then I realized the Vis Prone area wasn't needed for the camera sequence and got rid of it and the compiles were down to seconds.

proves my point. and the point that optimization from the start is good.

So do I (well, nodraw anyway). It saves me pulling apart brushes to apply nodraw. I texture as I go along (usually nodraw first, then dev and then actual textures). Takes a little longer, but the results are better IMO.

I don?t habe the null texture... Not the hint or skip either...

And thats a bad thing, so if someone feel like sending me a .wad the evil midget would come over and thank them

Actually, "Null" was my default texture in Hammer in my last HL editing days: I?d always do all the architecture and geometry with null textures and then just walk around in the 3d view window texturing all visible stuff. Then play, note down any mistakes in a piece of paper and get to Hammer again.

Toose, to have the "Null", "Hint" or "Skip" textures, get the ZHLT pack. These are the tools designed for HL when it comes to compiling (Hammer comes with Quake?s ones, I think) and the pack includes a ZHLT.WAD file with these textures.

Did you know that WAD stood for "Where?s all the data?" in good old Doom days?.

I dont use hint at all but I null anything that the player cant see. It reduces compile time, decreases the file size and lowers r speeds.

get wally and make your own null, skip, hint, origin, etc textures.
you can make them any size you want, any colors etc, so long as you name them correctly.

I can't imagine a dedicated mapper not using wally or a likeminded program.

I never used hint and skip textures much. I used null some more, but not extensively either. Most optimization comes from some planning and trickery. For example, I know of someone who had created a nice area, but r_speeds were high when looking from one of the corners. The solution? Blocking access to that corner.
I believe the compilers do a fair job on their own already, and only when really necessary I would take the time to manually improve the situation. In most cases, I simply don't need to.

For Source maps it would be more of an issue, as these maps are quite large in filesize so using nodraw textures to cut down on lightmaps isn't a bad idea there.

For me, it comes down to focusing on gameplay and visuals, rather than spending a lot of time optimizing a map. Of course, it takes some planning to avoid a bad performance that way. Some technical insight may also be good to have to estimate the situation.
Then again, everyone maps in his or her own way, this is just my view and way of working.

I never get high r_speeds, i avoid making stuff i know is going to give me high r_speeds and replace them with something that looks just as good but doesn?t give high r_speeds, so i never had any use for null or hint.... But i might need them someday so i better make some... I use wally all the time, and i don?t make the textures in ps and then make them WADs in wally, i go wally all the way man

So to make null, skip and hint textures i should just name them:
null
hint
skip

?

I think you need Zoners compile tools.

Dude, i got zoners... Just not the textures

Then ya just give them the names and they should work.

Yeah i guess... The only problem is that i wont need them

check what ever directory ZHLT are in for the Wad.

because ZHLT.wad doesn't get included no matter what, because it isn't needed.

If you made your own, then distributed a map, you would have to wad include it becaue BSP would still put in the BSP file that it needs the wad you made