The universe itself. Created 18 years ago2006-04-13 10:12:57 UTC by Madcow

This is a, quite big,, thing that I'm writing for the moment, it's a summary of what we know about the universe so far.

I'm going to type down part 1 and 2 here ( I've only written this far anyways)
because there are some facts wich I'm not quite sure are correct.
If you are interested maybe you could help me?

This whole thing is a voluntary school project by the way. Feel free to discuss any statement.
And I would also be glad if ou corrected my english on this one.

Part 1 - No such thing as nothing
If I show you a box filled with air and ask you, "what's in the box?"
You will probebly say "nothing".
Then I'll say, no, that's not correct, there is air in the box.

I then show you a box wich I've pumped out all the air, wich leaves only vacuum in the box.
And I ask you the same question again.
This time I'm sure that you will say nothing.
But once again I say "no, that's not correct".
There is no such thing as nothing.
And I've got a very good prove that my statement is true.
And the prove is, everything.
We are, for example, a thing that proves that my statement is true.
Everything; The universe, the galaxies, the solarsystems, have all been born out of what we call "nothing"
Wich means that there is something in nothing.
And there's nothing more to say about that, yet

Part 2 - Goodbye dear neighbors

Edwin Hubble did a great discovery at the end of 1920, when he aimed his telescope at the sky.
He discovered that the galaxies are moving away from eachother.
He saw that the light from the galaxies was redshifting.
Redshifting is a fenomeno in the "Doppler effect", wich occurs when light travells away from the spectator in a very high speed, wich makes the frequency lower and the apparent wavelength longer, wich gives the light a red color.

Some astronomers thought that the gravity from the other gallaxied would slow the other gallaxies down, and eventually make eachother fall into a center where they would collaps into a great singulatiry, but no.
Later they discovered that the gallaxies wheren't slowing down, infact, they where gaining speed!
A theory says that a mysterious dark energy, also called "antigravity" is inside the gallaxies and absorbes the gravity from the other galaxies and makes the galaxy accelerate away from the other galaxies.

---

What do you think?
Discuss and tell me your opinion, please.

Thanks!

Holy crap, deep and impressive Maddy! Can't really say anything else.

Thanks.
But it ain't finnished yet,

Edit:

By the way, I'm not sure what part 3 should be about, even if there is so much to write about.
Any ideas?

He saw that the light from the galaxies was redshifting.
Redshifting is a fenomeno in the "Doppler effect", wich occurs when light travells away from the spectator in a very high speed, wich makes the frequency lower and the apparent wavelength longer, wich gives the light a red color.

It's not just down to movement, apparently, but is also because the density of the space in-between is changing ;).

Could you describe that with more detail?
I don't really understand.

So what is in the box if its a vacuum?

You say there is no such thing as nothing but then neglect to tell us what is in the box when under vacuum conditions! If you cant prove to me what is in there then reason states that there must be nothing in thus proving your statement wrong.

Everything; The universe, the galaxies, the solarsystems, have all been born out of what we call "nothing"
Wich means that there is something in nothing.
And there's nothing more to say about that, yet

yes we may* have been born out of nothing but your saying that there is now something in nothing. Surely when something was born then nothing no longer existed!

*Space science is about 95% theory, we cant or havent proven the majority of our theories so we dont know if newer theories based on unproven theories are in fact reliable.

Could you describe that with more detail?

'Fraid not, 'cos I don't know any more about it yet.

MNuTz:

No one knows.
And that's the beuty of it!
But scientists are working on it.

That chapter is like an intro, and I will get back to it when we start talking about how the universe was born.
Or well, a theory of how it was born.

*Space science is about 95% theory, we cant or havent proven the majority of our theories so we dont know if newer theories based on unproven theories are in fact reliable.

True, but it all makes sense.
Don't be negative mr.

And I've got a very good prove that my statement is true.
And the prove is, everything.
We are, for example, a thing that proves that my statement is true.
Everything; The universe, the galaxies, the solarsystems, have all been born out of what we call "nothing"
Wich means that there is something in nothing.

That is very cleverly put in my opinion Madcow.

True, but it all makes sense.
Don't be negative mr. smile -

Im not but ive a physics background and just love experiments to prove stuff, i love theories as i often come up with some myself (even if they are rather outlandish) just to spark a conversation. Thats the beauty of a theory, it can be anything you like, its when theories start being used as fact that it gets to me!

I also work under the fact that if you make a theory, you should try and prove it wrong not try and prove it right. If you cant then it must be true.

It used to make sense that the earth was flat until someone proved different! However, you seem to take the theories with a pinch of salt so this should make an interesting thread

That is very cleverly put in my opinion Madcow.

Thanks!

Im not but ive a physics background and just love experiments to prove stuff, i love theories as i often come up with some myself (even if they are rather outlandish) just to spark a conversation. Thats the beauty of a theory, it can be anything you like, its when theories start being used as fact that it gets to me!

I also work under the fact that if you make a theory, you should try and prove it wrong not try and prove it right. If you cant then it must be true.

It used to make sense that the earth was flat until someone proved different! However, you seem to take the theories with a pinch of salt so this should make an interesting thread

I'm glad to see that you have similar interests as I have.
You shouldn't use a theory as if it was a fact, no, not in most cases.
But sometimes we all need a wall to lean against.
But else, I agree with you, totaly!

Part 3 will be about gravity, a simple explenation.

This chapter didn't turn out as good as the others, but at least it explains Einsteins theory about gravity.

Part 3 - Gravity.

When you read this, you might sit in your office, or, maybe home in your room.
More things happens in this room than you know.
For example, the computer screen tries to drag you against it, on the same time as you try to drag the screen against you.
And there's nothing you can do about it!
Everything in the room is draged against you, and so on..
The gravity is the villain behind this.
Everything has gravity.

MASS = GRAVITY

Everything that has mass, also has its own gravity field.
Your gravity field is very small because you don't have so much mass.
But a planet, or a star has LOADS of mass!

Einstein figgured out an easy way to explain gravity, and I will use it in this text too.
He said that you can take a large rubbercloth, and pretend that it is the spacetime.
When you put a heavy object on this cloth, it will bend the cloth / the spacetime.
It's infact much harder than this but the rubbercloth explenation is good enough if you want to understand how it works.

There's a lot of maths behind gravity.
One thing that could come usefull to know, is that when the space between a massive object, and a much smaller object increeses to the dubble, the force of the gravity will be 4 times weaker.

---

in itself what we know about infinity is already a summary of that which can never be fully comprehended but any finite piece on the subject of everything is inherently a summary

Everyones has heard of outer space, but very few have heard of inner space.

I was reading an article about this the other day, it basically states that infinity brings images of vastness and long distances, however infinity goes the other way to.

you have infinity inside your body, in between your cells etc.

Hard to get your head round though, just like the chaos theory but very interesting!

I see if i can find the article.

Please do.

Apparently a point at the top edge of a rotating circle is travelling at double the speed of the bottom. Odd, eh?

infinity is a concept that cannot be comprehended by the finite world and existance that we live in, if you cut an apply into infinate pieces each piece weighs 0 grams and has 0 volume, even the concept of nothing/zero was only realised in the 13th century when the roman numerical system was demolished by the onslaught of our current system from the african nations

Indeed; 1/infinity = 0.

im sure i wrote apple and not apply, dammit

I made up an interesting but outlandish theory afew weeks ago when I was reading about time dilation. But it's more of a question really.

According to time dilation, time appears to slow when an object that is moving is observed from a stationary point of view. All of the matter in the universe is moving, so everything that is moving as a certain entropy rate over a period of relative time. If the universe wasn't moving, would everything that could possibly happen in infinite time happen instantly? As if our speed through the cosmos has an effect on the rate at which we decay.

Think about it, we are speeding around a planet, which is orbiting a sun, which is orbiting around our galaxy, which is moving in whatever direction that our cluster is moving. If the bubble theory is correct and there are more universes, we might be moving even faster then! If we somehow came to a complete stop in the universe, everything would almost instantly be...well, done.

time is essentially subjective anyway, we humans have a very poor perception of it

Your wrong about the first part MadCow, nothing is nothing. Its not somthing, if it were it would not be called nothing it could be called somthing.

The universe wasn't born out of nothing, there was somthing there to begin with, you cant get somthing out of nothing. Nothiness is just that. A vacume is nothing, there is nothing there, nothing at all.

Apparently a point at the top edge of a rotating circle is travelling at double the speed of the bottom. Odd, eh?

Are you sure you dont mean the top of a rotating circle is not going as fast as the middle of it? Because by definition your statement is incorrect, a perfect circle spinning (not moving) will have a constant speed across its edge (on the outside of it).

Also MadCow, you should explain in the bit about planets accelerating away from each other, that they are accelerating NOW because the universe is still very young (they are still being propelled by the big bang, eventually everything WILL fall into one spot, one large black hole, and then the big bang will occour again.

Infinity, although imposbile to grasp by definition, can be comprehended. You look out into a dark spot in the night sky, and if you are lucky (if there isnt somthing else in the way, so far away that light hasnt reached us from it yet) then you are looking into infinity. An infinite sea of nothingness.

you have infinity inside your body, in between your cells etc.

Not true, you can zoom in infinity times (theoretically, I belive there will be a limit) but that does not make the space inbetween your cells infinite. There is a measurable ammount of space between any two objects, and if it can be measured its not infinite.

the concept of nothing is as hard to grasp as the concept of infinity, how is it so wrong to state the universe began as nothing my head hurts

Are you sure you dont mean the top of a rotating circle is not going as fast as the middle of it? Because by definition your statement is incorrect, a perfect circle spinning (not moving) will have a constant speed across its edge (on the outside of it).

No, I didn't, and, no offence, but somebody who I believe is considerably more knowledgable about such things (a serious genius of a maths teacher) said this.

There is a measurable ammount of space between any two objects, and if it can be measured its not infinite.

Sure it is, just a very small one ;D

The speeds of a spinning disk are constant all around from the same point from the center. It only changes as you go in or out along the diameter.

what is speed, why is the edge of the top of a circle infinately flat, why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near

these are all questions that will never be answered

Uhh...
Speed is velocity. Velocity is the relation of distance/time.
It's infinitely flat because a line is flat, and it's just a line curved around to itself.
Because birds are everywhere during spring? :

No, speed is not velocity. Speed is the magnitude of velocity. Velocity is a vector, and speed is therefore a scalar.

Damn you Alex, I was gonna say that. ;D

Still Seventh, the outside of a circle cannot have differnt speeds, unless you mean a sphere that is spinning on its x axis (lets assume) where the furthest points allong the x axis are movings slower than the ones on the y axis.

A circle MUST have a constant speed, otherwise it would be compressed, unless you are talking about micro micro variations in its dencity due to gravity and the other forces acting apon it, which I dont think you are.

If you can try to get the teacher to explain it to you in more detail and write up in a better explination.

everything you learn about physics, geometry, maths in school is wrong and thats usually the first thing you learn when you start a uni course in one of those subjects. They dumb down a lot of it to still plausible but older theories so kids can actually get their heads around it.

Yeah...that's uh what I meant seventh

If you can try to get the teacher to explain it to you in more detail and write up in a better explination.

I definitely intend to, but it's the hol's at the mo', so can't right now.

everything you learn about physics, geometry, maths in school is wrong and thats usually the first thing you learn when you start a uni course in one of those subjects. They dumb down a lot of it to still plausible but older theories so kids can actually get their heads around it.

Very true, one of the first things our A Level physics teacher told us was to forget 90% of the stuff that we learnt at GCSE level, although a lot of it is still true most of it is 'dumbed down' as you so tactfully put it.

Light for example, isnt a beam of light, its (the is the most up to date theory AFAIK) a single photon entity crossing between dimentions in a predictable course. Weird eh? Theres a lot more to it than that but thats a very rought outline of it, the actual fact of the matter is that we dont know how light works, we can only drum up a simple 'theory' that fits, even though we know for a fact that its wrong, its the best we have at the moment.

lets talk dark matter.

As far as I know, "Dark Matter" is fiction. That or it is another name for Anti-Matter.

So what is in the box if its a vacuum?

There is no perfect vacuum! My psyics teacher told me that...

dark matter is the matter that we see as 'empty space'
its, like theoretical physics or something

[/quote]There is no perfect vacuum! My psyics teacher told me that...[quote]

Its called "Space".

dark matter is the matter that we see as 'empty space'
its, like theoretical physics or something

Its called "Space".

There is no perfect vacuum! smile - My psyics teacher told me that..

That's what I was trying to say in chapter 1.
There is no such thing as nothing.
I love to say that, XD

I don't know alot about dark matter, all I know is:

We don't know for sure what dark matter is.
It is invisseble because it seems to absorbe any kind of electromagnetic radiation.
We know that it is there though, because it has mass, and therefore we can use machines that can feel the gravityfield that the dark matter creates.

In all of the books I've read, there's no better explenation of dark matter than that. :S

I don't think it just is "fiction"
I believe that we have found dark matter be cause we have felt this gravity.

We think that a lot of stuff contains dark matter.
I've read that we found a star or something that had a much greater gravity then what the mass of it could do.
Therefor they said that "some kind of dark matter makes the star heavier than what it should be."

I think I'll look up some facts on it and include it in Part 4.

their can be perfect vacume in quantum quantities.

Infinity between two things? you say its wrong, but its correct.
because a vacume is there being 0pressure in X volume. and by the mathamatics there is a infinite amount of volume between 2 objects. an infinate amount between 3 objects, and it only becomes finite between 4.

infinte volume = infinite space = infinite small areas of space

dark matter is real and not anti matter.

every particle like photons and any thing else that doesn't have mass isn't a particle at all, but a quanta of energy. because they can't have a mass of 0 and still be a physical object.

Your wrong about the first part MadCow, nothing is nothing. Its not somthing, if it were it would not be called nothing it could be called somthing.

The universe wasn't born out of nothing, there was somthing there to begin with, you cant get somthing out of nothing. Nothiness is just that. A vacume is nothing, there is nothing there, nothing at all.

Read again.
According to theory
we MUST have been born out of what we call "nothing"
There is something in vacuum/space, but the scientists can't say what.
Severall experiments has been made in vacuum, where they have put an onject inside a vacuum chamber, and they have seen that "some kind" of an inviseble force is affecting this object.
I've seen in my self (on television. )

There really isn't a perfect nothing.
There is always something.

Though, I can't say, THIS IS THE TRUUTH, it is theory.
But I believe in it.
I can't say that you are wrong, and you can't say that I am wrong. ^^
It's silly, isn't it.

I cant find that article but i will keep looking!

I remember as a child (about 6) i was standing on a childrens roundabout that spins around and around. I told my parents that i would travel faster if i stood on the outside of the roundabout than the inside. my reasoning because it has to keep up with the middle as its attached but has to travel further.

At that age i didnt know the speed/time/distance formula then, i kust knew it was right. My parents however told me i was wrong!

its strange to think that one object can and does travel at 2 different speeds!

Infinity between two things? you say its wrong, but its correct.
because a vacume is there being 0pressure in X volume. and by the mathamatics there is a infinite amount of volume between 2 objects. an infinate amount between 3 objects, and it only becomes finite between 4.

infinte volume = infinite space = infinite small areas of space

No, as I said you can zoom in (theoretically) infinite times, but any area between two objects can not be an infinite space, you could cut it up into infinite sections, but that doesnt chage the fact that there is a limited ammount of space, therfore its not infinite.

I can't say that you are wrong, and you can't say that I am wrong. ^^

True. However which is more plausable;

1: The universe has always been, first there was a black hole which mass grew so great that its own energy caused itself to explode thus the big bang.

or

2: There was nothingness and then suddenly WHAM Shit loads of matter just popped out of nothing.

Seriously, think about it.

There really isn't a perfect nothing.
There is always something.

There is a perfect nothing, its called outer space, do you think the universe stretches on forever? It doesnt, funnily enough the universe DOES have an edge, outside that is an abyss or nothingness. although we can speculate that other universes exists beyond it, like a collection of marbles in a very big bag.

Perfect nothiness has to exist, there cant be somthing everywhere all of the time, otherwise the entire universe would be one very big very dence lump of matter. Space IS perfect nothiness because everything in it is being drawn towards planetiods. Like space dust, all the time it is slowly getting closer and closer towards the strongest gravitational pull, even if it is orbiting the object eventually it will either fly off into space (and hit another planet) or crash into the one its orbiting.

As anyone who knows about the big bang theory knows that the universe is expanding, and they believe that at one point it will slow, then stop and come rushing back to its original point.

At which point, all matter implodes and then explodes again in another big bang. We may or may not be the first instance of the universe. What was there before this we can only guess!

At least, this is what i believe

although we can speculate that other universes exists beyond it, like a collection of marbles in a very big bag.

like the ending of MIB

As anyone who knows about the big bang theory knows that the universe is expanding, and they believe that at one point it will slow, then stop and come rushing back to its original point.
At which point, all matter implodes and then explodes again in another big bang. We may or may not be the first instance of the universe. What was there before this we can only guess!

At least, this is what i believe

Same here. And no, not like the ending of MIB.

like a collection of marbles in a very big bag.

Yeah I saw that movie too, it's called men in black.

No, bet seriously, I've missunderstood you totaly.

Now that you explain I can see what you mean and you are correct.
But in here, in our universe, there can't be nothing, else we wouldn't be here.

Sure, it seems as there should be an infinite of nothing outside our universe.
About what you said:

True. However which is more plausable;

1: The universe has always been, first there was a black hole which mass grew so great that its own energy caused itself to explode thus the big bang.

or

2: There was nothingness and then suddenly WHAM Shit loads of matter just popped out of nothing.

Seriously, think about it.

One of these is what I started to talk about in part 1.
And that is the first thing you said.
But I wasn't gonna really bring it up until somewhere in the end of the "book"
According to a theory, our universe is just a part of an infinite "ritual"
I've read this in a book, it went something like this:

"It all "started" as a singularity, and suddenly, something caused this singularity to explode! (Dar matter? hmm? Remember that stuff about anti gravity, that could be a good reason)
in the first second the universe was as big as an atom, and one second after that, it was as big as a,, well, very big anyways."

I like that theory, and that isn't the end of it, it continues like so:

"After living for a long time, the universe implodes into a singularity again, and the whole thing starts over"

I doubt about that part.
I mean, the universe is expanding, and accelerating!
So I don't believe in that part.

I don't know for sure what I do believe in, it all has its own leaks.

everythings not being pulled togheter, but repeled faster and faster. the universe will spread out forever by its current rate.

Perfect nothiness has to exist

let me give you a proof of this.

in the weakest vacume you can pick a volume in which there are contained only two particles. what is between those two particles, nothing.

There was nothingness and then suddenly WHAM Shit loads of matter just popped out of nothing.

That is not imposseble.
It's just that you make it sound like a silly theory when you,, express yourself like that...
I forgot to comment about it in my last post.
Here we go again.
The "nothingness" that it poped out from indeed was nothing.
But not the same nothing as you speak of.
It was the same nothing shit that I talked about in the beginning.

Here's what I think:

The universe was born out of nothing.
Be cause there is something in nothing, but not something that would make us call nothing something (yes, confusing)
A force, wich created the first singularity, wich then exploded and matter was created.

I can't explain it any better for now.

Dar matter? hmm? Remember that stuff about anti gravity, that could be a good reason

Sorry I ment Dark energy.

---

By the way, I've messed up a bit here.
What I said about "The outer space" and about the "nothingness" out there.
That can't still be perfect vacuum.
The force is still there!
Though, how do we know?
We can't just, run to the end of our universe, and push out our head and look if there is anything out there.
Me and, VOX I think,, discussed this in an other thread, where we said that if you travell straight out in the universe, you will at the end find your self on the same spot as you started.
See the universe as a globe wich you walk on, walk straight out and you will go around the globe.

I'm a bit confused about this tough, because the new theory about how our universe looks, (wich is more "popular" or, well, our equations points out that this is closer to the truth..) says that our universe is shaped like a horse sadle.
And I don't know anything about that theory so I can't say anything more about it.

[ (not sure about this, but, anyways:)

But I think the theory is called, "an open universe"

This globething wich I talked about above, that theory is called "A closed universe"

]

Ow my brain hurts