The universe itself. Created 18 years ago2006-04-13 10:12:57 UTC by Madcow

Yeah, it's really confusing, but I promise you, by reading the posts in this thread you will gain IQ.

This whole "how the universe is shaped thingy" is out of my knowledge.
And what's outside, well, some people say that the universe is moving in some timeless medium, but I havn't read about that at all!

My schoolproject will only include what's inside, and a theory about how it might have been created.
And that is how this "nothingness" somehow created matter.
I will read more about it and then I might be able to explain it better.

We hardly no anything about the universe, and each answere will give us 100 other questions. I believe Einstein said something along the lines of 'the universe isnt complex, its only hard to understand for a human'

Note that i have no cleu how the sentence really went.

Yeah, that is what he said pepper, I love that line, and I also hate it.

No human could just, sit back and think about how the universe looks and works.
I bet that if you could, your head would explode.

I say:

There is no way we can draw the universe, only in equations.

everythings not being pulled togheter, but repeled faster and faster. the universe will spread out forever by its current rate.

Quote:
Perfect nothiness has to exist

let me give you a proof of this.

in the weakest vacume you can pick a volume in which there are contained only two particles. what is between those two particles, nothing.

It cannot travel outwards forever, the bang that created the universe did so with a limited amount of energy, as it travels further and further away from its source it will loose more and more energy. Eventually it will stop. Ripples in a pon dont go on forever but fade over time, and bombs only have a limited blast area.

Your nothing between 2 points is logical but flawed, just because at this current time in our scientific knowledge we cannot find anything between these 2 particles doesnt mean its not there. We may just lack the equipment to measure it. Remember that not that long ago there was nothing smaller than an atom!!

It cannot travel outwards forever, the bang that created the universe did so with a limited amount of energy, as it travels further and further away from its source it will loose more and more energy. Eventually it will stop. Ripples in a pon dont go on forever but fade over time, and bombs only have a limited blast area.

Your nothing between 2 points is logical but flawed, just because at this current time in our scientific knowledge we cannot find anything between these 2 particles doesnt mean its not there. We may just lack the equipment to measure it. Remember that not that long ago there was nothing smaller than an atom!!

Part 1 of what you said.
I've never seen it that way, how stupid of me. :/
If you see it as it has a limited amount of energy (wich it must have, right?) it can't expand forever.
That's clever, really.

But this is just a theory of my own wich, just popped up in my head while reading your post.
What if the medium or, whatever we should call it, outside the universe really is NOTHING.
Then maybe the universe can expand forever after all?

I've heard that if you take an object like a chair, and then just kick it away out into space, it will fly there forever.
Nothing stops it!
(Of course, that would be plain vacuum, nothing wich can create any resistance)
What if the same thing happens with our universe?
It could simply expand untill it finds any resistance, wich, is very unlikely.

Part 2:

You just explained what I couldn't explain, thanks.

true, and as we know, that if we create "nothing" (if it really does exist) it is basically a vacuum. If we put a balloon into a vaccum it would suck the ballon outwards until it popped.

It the nothing outside our universe is a vacuum and we image that our universe has a 'skin' around its outer edge (like surface tension on water) then perhaps we lost the initial energy from the big bang but now we are expanding due to the vacuum beyond our universe pulling us outwards!

Yeah, that's about what I ment!
Let's call it "The madcow theory"

Ripples in a pond fade away because there is friction. If there was a pond in space (?) and there were ripples they would go on forever, bouncing back and forth. The univers's speed has ovecome the gravitational pull of the rest of the universe, hence why it is accelerating. Therefore there will never be enough gravity to pull it all back.

edit: Hmm I'm not sure about the pond in space thing. But since waves represent energy in motion I would guess it's correct.

The pond thing, I don't know about that.
Sure there is no air that stops it, but the water itself is a resistance. :/

But then, how will it end?
Or will it end at all?

Just a question, no offence really.
How many in this thread believes in god, or, is religious in any way?

There'd still be some kind of internal friction I'd imagine, VOX, heating the water a little over time ? not that I've ever studied fluid dynamics.

i dont believe in god in the sense of an almighty being that oversees earth and all that live upon it, however, i strongly believe in an afterlife to the point where ive had friends die and ive not been as upset as others. Some people see it as heartless but when i explain that i believe they are in a better place they understand where i am coming from.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

The doctor was trying to prove the existence of a soul. Ive have read a more detailed research paper about his methods, alot of what is not mentioned in this page. We all lose 21 grams on dying (supposedly) This page outlines the initial research done but not later research etc.

If in fact it is true, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, only tranferred. If we cant see anything physical leave the body then it must be energy of some type but what does it transfer into and where does it go.

However, we are moving from science to religion, two subjects that mix about as well as oil and water

I don't believe in god either.
I do believe in that we will go to a better place where we can go back to earth or, whatever and perhaps visit your family.

Many people in my family claims to have heard the voices or, laughs of those who has passed away.

Sure, if one does it you can think that it simply was an ilussion.
But if several people hears the same thing without talking to the other it gets kinda strange.
So, I believe in that.

BTW.
Any suggestions on Part 4 in my "book"?
I though as mentioned earlier that I would bring up some stuff about dark matter and dark energy.

Har Har! There ain't be nothing but Davey Jones Locker to discover so stop ye whining ye yellow bellied, lilly livered land-lubber! Avast!

Arrr! This be good grog!

Chaos has to be in your "book" somewhere!

Am I dumb or what is chaos?

Edit:

Do you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos ?

I mean the Chaos Theory, everyone always ttried to describe it by saying "if a butterfly flaps its wings in america will it cause a tsunamia in japan" or something similar to that.

Its very hard to explain so id suggest you do a bit of research into it.

One of the first things i read about it that a scientist built a very basic weather program, he entered the current figures he needed and then fast forwarded the program to try and predict the weather. After a while extremely bad weather appeared. He then entered the data from just before the bad weather to see if it would happen again, it didnt.

good book on it: Chaos: Making a science by James Gleick.

First book i read on the subject and is very good!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

I've never heard of it, but I'll do what I do the best, learn, ;D

Edit:

A bit to advanced I'm afraid.. The text on wikipedia that is.
I'll look for a book.
Do you think you can explain what it is about in an easy way, so I just could get started on it a bit? ^^
There was no explenation in swedish so I'm really having a hard time understanding it.

It seems advanced so if I manage to understand this theory I'll put it somewhere in the end of the "book".

Any other suggestions for part 4?

good book on it: Chaos: Making a science by James Gleick.

I'll look for it.

So if gordon went back in time the resonance cascade will never have happened?

Great idea gordon!
I'll have a chapter about time!

But,, I don't know alot about time ether.
Well, I do know some stuff..
I'll do it! :>

Hey, Einstein said something about, you can't travell into the future, only to the past, right?

No, I believe it was only the future. Because going at the speed of light stops time for you. Go to the future by going fast away from earth and then coming back again.

Umm,, vox, that makes you go back in time. (I think..? O.o)

I'll try to explain what I think..

BWOOM! You fly away from the earth in the speed of light, and you're no longer an event in the dimension of spacetime.
But the time on earth goes on..
When you then turn back, still travelling in the speed of light, and you eventually reach the earth, you're back in the exact same second as you left.
Wich, kinda makes you travel back, but, infact doesn't make you travell anyway at all.

But are you sure about that if you travell in the speed of light, time will stop?
I didn't know that.

---

Edit:

The theory holds that, relative to a stationary observer, time appears to pass more slowly for faster-moving bodies: for example, a moving clock will appear to run slow; as a clock approaches the speed of light its hands will appear to nearly stop moving

Wikipedia.
it doesn't stop, it's just, much slower.
Close enough.

And I was wrong:

These effects are to some degree similar to hibernation or hypothetical suspended animation (which slow down the rates of chemical processes in the subject), and only allow "time travel" only toward the future: never backward.

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Edit2:

Oh, I get it now!

If time is moving slow for you, but fast for the others, and you return, you will return to the future, not to the same time as you left.
Amazing..

BWOOM! You fly away from the earth in the speed of light, and you're no longer an event in the dimension of spacetime.
But the time on earth goes on..
When you then turn back, still travelling in the speed of light, and you eventually reach the earth, you're back in the exact same second as you left.
Wich, kinda makes you travel back, but, infact doesn't make you travell anyway at all.

TWhen you travel very fast the time goes slower for you, that means if you travel very fast for a year, you will be 1 year older, but in the place where you left everyone will be >1yr older. That means they will get older than you and which also means that you traveled into the future.
uh.. right..

SpaG: What are you on about?

If you travell very fast, lets say, the time goes half the speed for you, than it does on earth.
Then, if your away for a year, and then return, you will be a half year older, and all others will be a year older!
Not in earth time, but in pure chemistry.
The chemical events in your body will slow down if you travell that fast.
So, you will be for example 53 years old on earth, but your body will infact be 52.5 years old!

Michel Jackson should have thought of that. Hah.
Gaschamber.. lawl

That's what i was saying.

Its called "Space".

Space isn't a perfect vacuum, there are some molicules in it. Few but some.

Space isn't a perfect vacuum, there are some molicules in it. Few but some.

Not just little, loads.
But relative to the space, it is very little.

For example, when a supernova occurs loads of gas is spread out in the space.
Without supernovas we wouldn't have had some of our heaviest elements.

And here's part 4, some facts about TIME.

---

Part 4 - What we call "Time".

Time is a big subject within filisofy and science.
What is time?
In physics the time is in a dimension called "spacetime", wich is a dimension where events occurs.
Spacetime is the fourth dimension (4D).
1.Length 2.Width 3.Height 4.Time

In science-fiction we often read about timetravelling both forward and backwards in time, but only one of these journies are posseble according to Einstein, and that is Forward!
There are two ways to travell to the future, and that is:
1. Be exposed by gravity. (the more the better)
2. Blast away in an extrem speed!

1. It is proved that time goes slower here on earth, but faster while travelling in the air, like in an airplane or similar, but that kind of difference doesn't do a lot of difference in time.
But as I said, the more gravity, the more the time will slowdown!

2. For example, if you blast away a clock in the speed of light, the clock will almost stop!

But there is a really good way to keep time, and that has to do with point 1, and that is if you travell into a black hole!
In a blackhole there is no time at all!
You would be completly timeless!
But there is a catch, or, make that two.
Number one.
Where there isn't time, there is no movement or any other kind of event, so you can't just decide "oh, I've been here long enough, time to get out"
You can't do a thing.

Number 2.
You're in a black hole, wich has a singularity!
Nothing escapes from a singularity, not even light!

---

I think part 5 will be about how a sun is born, now that the reader knows some about how gravity works

filisofy

Philosophy? ;D

Argh, now I can't edit.

Thanks I guess, ^^

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Edit:

Hey, I just relised something.
The thing we talked about before, about, the universe expands because of the "nothingness" outside draging it out, like a baloon in vacuum.
Then, if it keeps expanding, at the end maybe the inner pressure will be lower than the outer, wich will make the whole shit implode again.
That would restard the building of the universe again as it schrinks in to a singularity again.
But this would only be posseble if the space outside the universe is limited, wich it probebly isn't.

In my opinion the universe and time are cyclic. No matter how far will you go you will end in the position you started. It doesn't have borders, start or even end.
So the expanding thing eventually will end when everything meets in one place causing another big bang. So everything starts all over.

Yeah that's one of the three theories, I think it's called "The closed universe"

Einstein thought of the universe that way.
But scientists these days says that the test results points at that the universe is open.
That is that the universe is formed like a horse sadel.
But, as I mentioned earlier, I don't know a lot about that.

But what you said, it's a clever theory, and maybe in a few years we'll see wich one that is correct.

time is not a dimension. time is a constant. time is dependant on nothing. you cant travel back in time, although you can slow your progress through it by travelling at the spped of light or close to it.

Time is in a dimension called spacetime,
Without the fourth dimension, no time.

When I think of time, I think of a cube representing our universe.
And then a fourth direction wich represents time, and the cube travells across the timeline, and it only goes one way.

I'll give you a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

I wouldn't use wiki as my end all source for this.

This is VERY, VERY hard to explain so bear with me.

Imagine space time as a grid of clocks that extends on forever, with the clocks at all the grid interesctions. An observer is located at the origin with a master clock and sends out a synchronization pulse at t = 0. (t is time) The pulse takes time r/c to reach any clock from the origin, where r is the distance from the master and c is the speed of light. So any clock would read r/c as it's time the instant the pulse reaches it. This method of clock synchronization assumes that the speed of light is the same value in all directions of all inertial frames. The procedure also concerns an event recorded by and observer in ONE SPECIFIC inertial frame. An observer in another inertial frame (or location) would have to be assigned different space-time coordinates to events being observed by using another coordinate grid of clocks.
In relativistic mechanics the distance between two points depend of the frame of reference in which they are measured. In relativistic mechanics there is no such thing as absolute length or time, it all depends where an observer is IN the spacetime when he/she observes it. Also, events at different locations that are observed to occur simultaneously in one frame are not observed to be simultaneous in another frame moving uniformly past the first.

In other words, from the observer in the procedure above, all the clocks would appear synchronized, but to an observer at another location along the grid they wouldn't be. I think, or something like that..ow my braaiin.

Was that too confusing?

Gravity, Time, Space, Blackholes, Murphy's law, The Chaos Theory, Penguinboy, Energy and Wikipedia are all figments of your imagination Madcow, as am I. Arrr.

What are you trying to explain?
No, wikipedia isn't my main source, I read loads of books.
What I type is a version simple enought so a student at my age would understand it ( 14 years old )
Writing that would make them explode scince they haven't been reading anything about the subject before. ^^

Anyways I've never heard that explenation of space time before.
I've heard this though:

You can't imagen the space time scince it is 4 dimensional.
No human mind can.
A space moves along a line wich is the 4 dimensional time line.
Inside the space events happens wich we notice inside..

I'm really having a hard time explaining it, sorry.

Edit:

No, I sware.
It would be really lame if you just stole stuff from wikipedia.
what I do is that I read books, many times.
And I then collect what I need for a chapter inside my head, sit back and thinks for a while to see if it will make sence, and then I write it.
Most stuff is already in my head as I have been resurching about this for 5 years.
Yes, I begon very early.

You can't imagen the space time scince it is 4 dimensional.
No human mind can.

Unless we imagine it to be more mind-bogling than it actually is. In either case, you still smell.

We think 3 dimensional be cause we don't know how four dimensional looks, I think.

Why do I smell? :S What have I done?

We can imagine anything, that's the power of the human mind. I am imagining something that is 7-SEVEN-dimensional right now. All you do is apply a variable to each dimension.

My seven-dimensional clock:
Length
Width
Hight
Color
Time-setting
Loudness
Maker

Programming helps you greatly if you have trouble thinking of more than 3 dimensions, think of arrays that have like 20 dimensions WHEW! A dimension is just a variable.

Who said you've done anything..? Cow's just naturally smell, it's the methane. <- science!

Here is how I can explain spacetime. OK, here is the twins paradox. One twin on earth, one twin goes on spaceship and speeds away at a speed near the speed of light, c. Both are the same age. When the twin comes back, his twin is older than he is because his time was "slowing down".

You can graph his journey on a space-time graph.

A path through a space-time graph is called a world line. Nothing can pass the light world line, because you would have to go faster than c. The stationary twins world line does not go anywhere along the x axis because he isn't moving anywhere. The speeding twin's line is going at a small angle to the light world line because he is going at a speed NEAR c away from his stationary twin. It curves back because he turns around.

This is almost impossible for me to explain in a forum, you just have to research this stuff more. Use books instead of the internet, they are way better.

Who said you've done anything..? Cow's just naturally smell, it's the methane. <- science!

Smartass! >_<

This is almost impossible for me to explain in a forum, you just have to research this stuff more. Use books instead of the internet, they are way better.

I told you, I read books.
Internet is for teh suckers.
I can't explain it in that way be cause that would make those in my age confused, it made me confused to btw.
I can't use that.
In my part 4 i simply explained the real meaning of time and some facts, not the exact way of how it works.

---

I'm now almost finnished part 5.
It will be about how a star is born.
It ain't very hard to understand so I can push that up to more details I think.

We can imagine anything, that's the power of the human mind. I am imagining something that is 7-SEVEN-dimensional right now. All you do is apply a variable to each dimension.

My seven-dimensional clock:
Length
Width
Hight
Color
Time-setting
Loudness
Maker

Programming helps you greatly if you have trouble thinking of more than 3 dimensions, think of arrays that have like 20 dimensions WHEW! A dimension is just a variable.

I don't think you understand exacly what I mean on this point.
a 4 dimensional body, how would it look?
We don't know.
I'm thinking about the dimensions of "direction" or, what you could call it.

If you're thinking of looking at a body in 4 dimensions, you have to have the 4th dimension be something. Is it your age? Your location? You location in space-time? We ony have 3 dimensions that can determine our size. Period. Length, Width, Hight. You could have the 4th dimension be density?

I'm thinking about the dimensions of "direction" or, what you could call it.

There are only 3 directions. A 4 dimensional body would look just like a normal body, there is no "4th dimension" in your case. Like I said before the 4th dimension would just be some variable.

I used to try to think of dimensions like you are, three absolute directions, until I started learning C and got into the higher math levels in school.

Hi! My brain is absolouyelytfluggrywhateveryouspellitlike Throbbing , but this popped into my head , and others . Just think , There cannot be endless space , but , if it isn't , what stops it?if youre saying the universe is round meets each other , then the universe must be part of something bigger? Still , it HAS to be impossible for a never ending thing. (This really hurts my brain , and i can actually see c02... HOly shit!!!! Theres a shape of madcow !! WTF!!!)

VOX: hmm, you're right I'm wrong.
I believe in you be cause you can explain it in a good lever.
Sorry about it.
I'll correct myself after you.

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Dear Mr Good Map, I think you just answered your own question.

There cannot be endless space , but , if it isn't , what stops it?

According to that statement the risk of an endless universe is bigger.
I believe in an endless universe.
No wall ol any other stuff could screen of the universe just like that, there has to be something behind that too.

"A wall is in the end of the universe!"
"So, uhm, what's behind the wall?"
"...shit"

Space is a big flat, 2-dimension square, just like in all those old computer games, and when you fly your 'Hydro-booster deluxe' space-ship to the end of one side, you simply appear all the way on the otherside. You can also find fuel pickups floating around and use them by simply flying into them. It's that simple.

huh? Strider lol what are you smoking, powerups in space?
Space isn't flat, and space definately isn't 2-dimensional.

Me? Smoking illicit substances?! Are you crazy?
jumps in hydro-booster deluxe space-ship and fly's away

And it isn't squarish.
It must be some kind of a cirkle if there is no resistance outside, like a sphere.
And therefore I wonder why the universe is bent that way wich Einstein and so on talks about.
Sure, maybe the dimension we live in is a sphere, but the space time is bent.
In that case, why?
What bends it?

Here's part 5. How to create a star from A to Z!

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Part 5 - Startale

A gigantic gas cloud mainly of hydrogen and helium is hanging around on an open spot in the universe.
All of the gas together is loads of mass, and therefore it is gaining it's own gravity as it slowly gathers together.
Eventually it has collected all of the gas and what you can see now is a gigantic sphere of gas!
The sphere is getting smaller, not in mass, just smaller as the density of the gas goes higher, all because of the gravity.
Eventually the gravity is high enough to go fusion!
What happens in fusion is that the hydrogen atoms are exposed by such a hard pressure that they will "melt" together and create a heavier element such as helium.
When this happens a big amount of energy is released (heat) and therefore the sun now "burns".
The fusion continues as the elements inside gets heavier and heavier (will reach a limit though)
The star in new born, and glows blue because of the extream heat wich makes the light glow in a high frequence.

You can see how the star gets older by looking at the color.
[After birth]
-Blue
yellow
orange
-Red
[before death]

When the the fuel in the star almost is gone the star will start burning more fuel than before, wich pushes out the outer layer of the star wich makes the star bigger.
It is now red and much bigger than before.
In this condition the star is called "a reg giant".
It's not dead yet, one last event separates life and death.
The gravity now pulls back the outer layer and the whole star implodes!
This can end in two different ways.

1. (If the star has, about the same mass as our sun)
It implodes totaly, and all that's left is a small white dwarf.
Very roughly counter the white dward has almost the same mass as it had before, and the density is extreamly high.
The star still glows, weakly.

2. (If the star is a lot bigger than our star)
It goes supernova!
There are many different kinds of supernova, I'll go through one.
It implodes like end nr. 1, but the energy released on implosion bounces on the core and goes back out on the outher layer wich causes the whole star to explode!
A gigantic gascould of extreamly heavy elements is left after the explosion, and sometimes the core survives and creates a "neutron star", and sometimes the core implodes into a black hole.

The violent life of a star..

---

end of that chapter.
Chapter 6 will be about..?

Our star isn't going to implode, it's just going to burn out, like a coal on fire. It burns then leaves a smoldering white rock. A supernova only accurs if the star is big enough to become a red supergiant.

A theory says that a mysterious dark energy, also called "antigravity" is inside the gallaxies and absorbes the gravity from the other galaxies and makes the galaxy accelerate away from the other galaxies.

Einstein figgured out an easy way to explain gravity, and I will use it in this text too.

Einstein didn't found a way to explain gravity fields, HE DISPROVED THEM. In his theories, gravity force was an imaginative force, created by human scientists because they had no other way to explain it. What really happens is mass curving the space-time, which causes objects to "slide" toward each other, like in your example. That's the theory behind gravity drives and faster-than-light travel. So antigravity energy inside galaxies is just another way for scientists to escuse their lack of actually accurate formulae.

PS: It's just a theory, just like anything else, so don't get offended by it.