Question with carving
Created 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:42:56 UTC by
inuendocrash
Created 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:42:56 UTC by
inuendocrash
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:42:56 UTC
Post #178385
I carve, alot. I havent run into a problem yet, but i was wondering if it possible to 'un-carve', to take a block and make a wall whole again, to make it go from 4 blocks back to 1 big one. I save frequently, compile before saving, and have a back-up file which i save every now and then. I was just curios if it is possible
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:47:49 UTC
Post #178386
how about ctrl+z
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:48:27 UTC
Post #178387
No you can't like glue objects back together into one once they have been carved...
By the way carving = bad unless you use it just for square holes but even then it leaves tiny gaps that Hammer doesn't like.
Just make things bit by bit instead of lazingly just skipping it.
By the way carving = bad unless you use it just for square holes but even then it leaves tiny gaps that Hammer doesn't like.
Just make things bit by bit instead of lazingly just skipping it.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:52:27 UTC
Post #178388
or, use the clip tool....
what have you learned today?
1) dont carve, it creates microscopic leaks, invalid objects and perpindicular texture axis'
2) Instead, either create your doorway, window frame (whatever) manually creating all the neccisary blocks, or much more sensibly, use the clip tool whereever possible... Does exactly the same as carve except you decide what is cut, avoiding all carve's problems (if you know how to do it properly)
what have you learned today?
1) dont carve, it creates microscopic leaks, invalid objects and perpindicular texture axis'
2) Instead, either create your doorway, window frame (whatever) manually creating all the neccisary blocks, or much more sensibly, use the clip tool whereever possible... Does exactly the same as carve except you decide what is cut, avoiding all carve's problems (if you know how to do it properly)
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 11:59:32 UTC
Post #178392
i dont know how to clip, and i couldnt find a tutorial on this site by searching for 'clipping' and then just 'clip'
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 12:11:45 UTC
Post #178394
1) Select the clip tool (Shift+X).
2) Select a brush in one of the views.
3) Draw a line, making the area you want to remove red.
4) Press enter. Done.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 12:16:21 UTC
Post #178395
is it possible to make the clip line not be a line? to not go all the way through?
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 12:17:06 UTC
Post #178396
clip twice... or many times more... its how all complex brushes are made... unless you venture into vertex manipulation
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 12:20:33 UTC
Post #178397
ya, i manipulate vertecies(sp?), is it possible to clip a line in the center of the block, than manip[ulate to make a hole?
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 13:21:41 UTC
Post #178407
You can clip each side of the "hole" piece in the shape you want, select that piece alone and delete it. That will leave a "hole." Each clip will be through the entire brush.
After you make the first clip or two, you can select just one of the remaining pieces to clip the next piece to keep the number of brushes down and the length of the clips shorter.
Be aware. Even when you carve, you're not creating a hole. You create many brushes with a space between them. By clipping instead of carving, you get to choose what shape those pieces assume and ensure that their endpoints are at integer intersections.
After you make the first clip or two, you can select just one of the remaining pieces to clip the next piece to keep the number of brushes down and the length of the clips shorter.
Be aware. Even when you carve, you're not creating a hole. You create many brushes with a space between them. By clipping instead of carving, you get to choose what shape those pieces assume and ensure that their endpoints are at integer intersections.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 14:30:30 UTC
Post #178419
im not sure what would happen if you clipped a line on only one plain through a block, it would brobably give the "box is empty" error, but i think i know what you're talking about.
As you probably know form the engine, blocks cannot be concave, only convex.
imagine for a second, pac man. We all know him well. Now when his mouth is closed, he is a complete yellow circle (convex) when his mouth is open there is a peice missing and the sides of the circle can 'see' eachother (concave)
http://www.twhl.co.za/tutorial.php?id=32
thats a good tutorial for making holes and such.
there is no way to glue objects together, but if you select them and apply the texture as one big block, the engine wont know the difference.
As you probably know form the engine, blocks cannot be concave, only convex.
imagine for a second, pac man. We all know him well. Now when his mouth is closed, he is a complete yellow circle (convex) when his mouth is open there is a peice missing and the sides of the circle can 'see' eachother (concave)
http://www.twhl.co.za/tutorial.php?id=32
thats a good tutorial for making holes and such.
there is no way to glue objects together, but if you select them and apply the texture as one big block, the engine wont know the difference.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 15:29:33 UTC
Post #178431
Carving isn't bad! It can save some time. It's only bad if you carve with anything else then a block, and then you can't clip the block you wanted to carve into less parts then hammer does. No tool is bad, this includes hollowing!(well maybe the path tool is useless)
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 15:39:17 UTC
Post #178432
For a hole simply make an arch and lower the top number to a low number and it will make a perfectly round hollow tube.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 16:36:07 UTC
Post #178436
Remember: every time you carve, a kitten dies.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 20:24:03 UTC
Post #178460
if you carve a block into a block it doesn't create any leaks. Only angles with a slope more than 0 or vertical create leaks.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-04 20:33:45 UTC
Post #178461
OMg carving..... Vtex manip ONLY!
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 00:16:01 UTC
Post #178479
I use the clip tool and VM all the time.
Carving is ok afaik if you line up the verticies afterward with VM, but I must admit I haven't carved since one of my first hammer tutorials
Carving is ok afaik if you line up the verticies afterward with VM, but I must admit I haven't carved since one of my first hammer tutorials
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 10:38:32 UTC
Post #178539
I never use the cliping tool... Only VM
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 11:01:17 UTC
Post #178545
Once you learn VM there is no point for clipping/carving unless your goal is to get invalids......
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 11:27:13 UTC
Post #178548
Can you really make the brush in the left of this picture become the brush in the right with only vertex manipulation? You must be some sort of magician! 
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 11:33:50 UTC
Post #178549
Um yes? Face splitting, VM, three seperate brushes? Easy. Was that some sort of joke or something?
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 11:36:33 UTC
Post #178550
Clipping is without any doubt the fastest way from one brush to the other, and causes no invalid solids...
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 11:52:03 UTC
Post #178556
yes, but it does cause floating points, and its more difficult to make a linear cut thats at the desired slope. Thats why VM is better. THe points remain on the grid, and you have total control.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 12:06:14 UTC
Post #178558
No. Kasperg's shape has no floating points. In fact your shape and his would be indentical to the engine in every way except yours arguably would take longer to create.
If your clipping creates off-grid verticies, you simply VM them where they should be.
Stop being an argurmentative douche bag, and pointlessly trying to scare everyone away from clipping
If your clipping creates off-grid verticies, you simply VM them where they should be.
Stop being an argurmentative douche bag, and pointlessly trying to scare everyone away from clipping
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 12:17:42 UTC
Post #178559
No need for name calling rowleybob. Its all a matter of opinion. Clipping takes longer and just because his has no floating points does not mean clipping does not make them. The creation process would barely be noticable. I dont need to agree with everyone here ok? Dont like my opinion then dont take it. You dont need to call me a douche bag.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 12:35:10 UTC
Post #178563
There's a difference between an opinion and outright misinformation.
Clipping causes invalids -- False.
Clipping causes floating points -- Not necessarily, no.
Clipping takes longer -- Definitely not true.
In fact, clipping almost never causes the Invalid solid error. Incorrect VMing much more readily causes them
I'm sorry I called you a douche bag.
Clipping causes invalids -- False.
Clipping causes floating points -- Not necessarily, no.
Clipping takes longer -- Definitely not true.
In fact, clipping almost never causes the Invalid solid error. Incorrect VMing much more readily causes them
I'm sorry I called you a douche bag.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 12:39:11 UTC
Post #178564
Yes I was wrong about clipping causing invalids. I must of been thinking carving, but accidentaly typed clipping. I apologize for that mis information.
I still think clipping takes longer since you have to manually line up the clip for a perfect cut.
I still think clipping takes longer since you have to manually line up the clip for a perfect cut.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 12:56:17 UTC
Post #178568
Using a bigger grid size helps lining up the clip line. Moving a vertex is also manual and takes as much or even more effort, right?
With clipping, the operations needed would be:
-Make the brush and select it.
-Draw a clip line and press enter
-Draw the other clip line and press enter.
With VM, the operations needed would be
-Create a wedge
-Duplicate that wedge
-Rotate and change its position
-Deselect wedge in the brush creationoptions and select block
-Create a normal block brush
-Move each vertex of the block to the limits of the wedges.
With clipping, the operations needed would be:
-Make the brush and select it.
-Draw a clip line and press enter
-Draw the other clip line and press enter.
With VM, the operations needed would be
-Create a wedge
-Duplicate that wedge
-Rotate and change its position
-Deselect wedge in the brush creationoptions and select block
-Create a normal block brush
-Move each vertex of the block to the limits of the wedges.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 12:56:25 UTC
Post #178569
Edit:
Carving with cubes wont create invaild solids, you fool.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-05 18:11:35 UTC
Post #178597
Heh heh, the old argument about carving/clipping/vertex manipulation pops up again, complete with name calling and insulting.
Just use the tools you're comfortable with, as long as you're able to create good maps with it. A close look at HL (and HL2) maps reveals that these aren't always up to par to 'our technical standards'. While it certainly helps to know the advantages and disadvantages of the tools you work with, it's not really that important in the end (assuming you aren't misusing your tools in such ways that they cause significant performance or workability issues...).
Oh, Kasp: VM operations would be to create a brush, select the yellow nodes on one side, press Ctrl + F, move the corner vertices, and repeat those three actions for the other side. Still not really a timesaver, but not taking more brushes.
Just use the tools you're comfortable with, as long as you're able to create good maps with it. A close look at HL (and HL2) maps reveals that these aren't always up to par to 'our technical standards'. While it certainly helps to know the advantages and disadvantages of the tools you work with, it's not really that important in the end (assuming you aren't misusing your tools in such ways that they cause significant performance or workability issues...).
Oh, Kasp: VM operations would be to create a brush, select the yellow nodes on one side, press Ctrl + F, move the corner vertices, and repeat those three actions for the other side. Still not really a timesaver, but not taking more brushes.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-06 01:46:01 UTC
Post #178620
Wow I never knew you could split faces like that in hammer using Ctrl+F...will have to explore that a bit
Hammer Help files FTW!
edit: Whilst reading the Hammer helper files, I also noticed you can scale vertexes just like with modelling software! (Alt+E)
Like a kid with a new toy
Hammer Help files FTW!
edit: Whilst reading the Hammer helper files, I also noticed you can scale vertexes just like with modelling software! (Alt+E)
Like a kid with a new toy
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-06 08:24:53 UTC
Post #178666
Don't use the alt+E option, it ignores the grid.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-06 09:04:44 UTC
Post #178667
And so what if it ignores the grid? Some shapes need to fit together and the grid can make that impossible.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-10 23:14:21 UTC
Post #179414
doesnt the compile process automatically snap the edges of a block to the nearest grid point? if thats so, then some shapes are impossible because of the grid..
am i right or just un-educated :
am i right or just un-educated :
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-10 23:47:42 UTC
Post #179419
Clipping AND vertex manipulation ftw. I use 'em both.
I don't think that's right, Tetsu0.
I don't think that's right, Tetsu0.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-11 11:46:52 UTC
Post #179481
doesnt the compile process automatically snap the edges of a block to the nearest grid point?I think you mean vertices, not edges. Edges have an infinite number of points so they couldn't be on a grid point.
Vertices aren't snapped to the nearest grid point. That's the origin of some of the problems mentioned.
am i right or just un-educatedYou're not right but that doesn't mean you're uneducated, Tetsu0. You just didn't know about that particular thing.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-11 22:11:18 UTC
Post #179539
hmm... so the grid really doesnt matter? or is it just for measurment purposes.... oh dear now you guys got me confused.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 03:17:45 UTC
Post #179565
It's generally a good idea to snap to the grid. This prevents strange BSP cuts and if you lay out your brushes properly it avoids multiple portaling and leaf problems later on.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 04:56:42 UTC
Post #179569
Didn't mean to confuse you, Tetsu0. I should have emphasized that the compile process does not snap vertices to the grid. But, as RabidMonkey states, it's a good practice for you to do it when you edit a map.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 08:44:22 UTC
Post #179581
The alt+E option doesn't merge verticals too.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 09:56:17 UTC
Post #179586
Ctrl+f makes a new one, though.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 13:59:15 UTC
Post #179626
The compile tools may not snap vertices to the grid, but Hammer does when your map is saved to the .map format - which happens to be the file used by the compile tools.
This can indeed be a source of trouble sometimes - surfaces that seemed to be right (and probably were) get messed up after some vertices are corrected.
So, it's a little more than just a good habit to keep the grid in mind.
This can indeed be a source of trouble sometimes - surfaces that seemed to be right (and probably were) get messed up after some vertices are corrected.
So, it's a little more than just a good habit to keep the grid in mind.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 15:56:28 UTC
Post #179652
ahhhh i see now. thanks captain p
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 16:36:56 UTC
Post #179657
i love carving, i do it all the time, i call it shapemerge and boolean .
.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 16:57:56 UTC
Post #179659
Well in modeling the few extra polies aren't too harmful.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 20:13:11 UTC
Post #179673
There is nothing worng with carving guys, i made a test map, went nuts with the carving tool, i carved squars, cylinders and many other shapes and not a single error. Carving is a good tool, use it.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 20:17:42 UTC
Post #179674
carving is the devil!!! Yes it is! Satin himself! Stay away from Satin (I mean Carving) EVIL......................Evil.........EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 20:43:52 UTC
Post #179676
Tosse, you're a fool.
Btw, Xyos, I do believe its spelt "Satan". Satin is a type of material that's soft and quite smooth.
Btw, Xyos, I do believe its spelt "Satan". Satin is a type of material that's soft and quite smooth.
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-12 21:03:11 UTC
Post #179683
ROFL 
Posted 17 years ago2006-05-13 04:27:31 UTC
Post #179717
I don't agree with you, Tosse.
I've seen too much trouble come from careless carving. I assume you didn't test carving a wall that touches the void, so you didn't stumble on a microscopic leak or something else? Also, I assume you didn't compare poly counts with a non-carved equivalent map?
And is the resulting mess really that easy to work with when the map gets larger and more complex? I'm afraid it's getting quite difficult to maintain such a map over time.
But, in the end, it's about the result, not the tools used, so if you can carve without taking down performance or making it difficult for yourself to keep working on a map, then I see little reason not to use a tool. I just don't find the carving tool very usefull when I compare it's advantages against it's disadvantages, and those of other tools.
I've seen too much trouble come from careless carving. I assume you didn't test carving a wall that touches the void, so you didn't stumble on a microscopic leak or something else? Also, I assume you didn't compare poly counts with a non-carved equivalent map?
And is the resulting mess really that easy to work with when the map gets larger and more complex? I'm afraid it's getting quite difficult to maintain such a map over time.
But, in the end, it's about the result, not the tools used, so if you can carve without taking down performance or making it difficult for yourself to keep working on a map, then I see little reason not to use a tool. I just don't find the carving tool very usefull when I compare it's advantages against it's disadvantages, and those of other tools.
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