The Citizen: HL2 sp Created 17 years ago2007-11-08 18:18:15 UTC by Kasperg

you are told to avoid the combine in the next building. this is IMPOSSIBLE.

Excuse me while I point and laugh at you.

It's so easy.

You can just walk past the cop. without him even seeing you. VERY easily.

What did you find impossible about that.

do you know a mechanic called a GATEWAY? it's something that stops the player from missing that fucking crowbar on the road

There are 3 crowbars. You're guaranteed to find at least one of them. This tells me, that you never play any roleplaying games. And if you do, you really, really suck at them.

i stumbled around for a while until someone on IRC told me that i needed the crowbar which WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET.

Again, totally false.

I don't need to continue.

All your complaints are laughable.

If you can't work out how to WALK PAST something, what kind of gamer are you???

I think I know. The kind we didn't make this mod for.

if you can't take criticism constructively, don't bother making a mod.

I don't think your criticism was constructive.

You typed "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE" for two things which are most definately possible.

This makes you look like a moron.

Looking forward to your next work. Really am.

I love how a thread about a mod release turns into a flame-fest. Truly we are a loving community.

Simmer down folks, or I'll bring out the Gimp.

Played about an hour of the mod. Hated it. Mapping wasn't too bad I suppose but the gameplay decisions blew goats.

First level sucked. You have to talk to a whole bunch of random people until you find the right one. Who the fuck cares if the right one is wearing a different coloured shirt? People playing aren't going to necessarily know that. THEN you go and talk to that guy with a crazyass accent that you can't understand. He gives you a keycard and you're left with no idea where to go. I walk around for half an hour searching for ways to open locked doors, get past combine at front door (even though the crazyass accent guy said otherwise) and hidden buttons simply because I could not find a way out. Then someone in IRC tells me I need to go through a door which PREVIOUSLY you were punished for going through (DO NOT PRESS button, which is fucking ridiculous particularly since the sign above the bright red button is hardly noticable in the dark).

I then go and complete the first level without trouble. In fact, I complete the next couple levels without trouble, and without COMBAT (OH SHIT YOU FORGOT THE PART OF FPSs THAT MAKES THEM FUN) for the first fucking 3 levels.

5 button combination puzzles are stupid. According to my dodgy maths, there are 32 button combinations possible. What a massive waste of time trying to get the right one, seriously.

After 3 levels of monotonous, uninteresting gameplay, I finally get to fight some enemies! But I don't have a crowbar, gun or suit, since you allowed players to continue without these essential items. I had to cheat and use give item_suit and weapon_crowbar to continue.

I finally got to the part where you get to shoot Combines!!!! And it was a reasonable sequence aside from the fact that I kept getting caught in weird positions when I tried to jump the counter.

Then I got the airboat, travelled about 20 metres on it before having to stop, started listening to those people talking about pretty boring stuff for too long, got bored and quit.

I don't want to sound like a negative asshole, but this is not the type of mod for me. Too slow, too boring, not enough action. Sure, there is some quality mapping and voice acting (though some of it was pretty dull and monotonous), but that didn't make up for the poor gameplay mechanics IMO.

I don't see myself ever finishing it because I was far too bored and there never really seemed like there was a purpose to my escape and such. In Episode 2, you have a goal and you keep heading towards that goal. In this, you escape the lockdown and randomly go through a bunch of sewers and crap, not knowing where you're heading or where you're gonna end up.

Probably not a bad mod for people who enjoy slow roleplaying gameplay, but I thought there were too many bad decisions such as allowing the player to continue without essential items for me to enjoy it, especially when there was pretty much no action.

i didn't mean my map as a flame, i was expressing my opinion in an unbiased way. i have alot of respect for playbus and kasperg, but maybe if they are so arrogant not to accept people's opinions, then they might not deserve it. your call, fellas.

Sorry you didn't find it fun Trapt. We knew that it wouldn't suit some people.

One thing though:

5 button combination puzzles are stupid

You did notice the combinations written on the walls next to the doors. Right?

maybe if they are so arrogant not to accept people's opinions

You didn't offer any opinions. You stated in capital letters that things were impossible, which are not impossible at all.

How is that constructive criticism, or even an informed opinion?

Playbus, there's a ton of other things Penguinboy covered in that review than that one little item you're focusing on.

Am I the only guy who had no problem finnishing the first maps until the airboat at all?

D:

I found the HEV and the crowbar before encountering any enemies, without any problems.

I'm not stuck at the airboat part, it's just that I saved and quit there, Im gonna continue later today.

You did notice the combinations written on the walls next to the doors. Right?

There were? D:

It was a bit dark
Oh well, it wasn't very hard to figgure out anyway

You did notice the combinations written on the walls next to the doors. Right?

No, and as a modder you cannot assume that a player will notice such a minor detail just because you put it there. Especially when the mod is so dark (I know I'm not the first to say this, so maybe you guys should check it out).

You didn't offer any opinions. You stated in capital letters that things were impossible, which are not impossible at all.

How is that constructive criticism, or even an informed opinion?

I'm not really siding with Penguinboy here, but I must say that I feel the same way as him. You cannot assume that a player will know exactly what to do, and may find it 'impossible,' even if it is possible.

The main problem I have with this mod is that the authors assumed the players would know what to do based on little (not very noticable) hints.

You really need to make the goal and possible solution obvious, or players will get frustrated and not enjoy your mod.

Just my opinion, though.

Penguinboy's post:

HORRIBLE.
IMPOSSIBLE.
GATEWAY?
I DIDN'T HAVE.
IMPOSSIBLE TO GET
DO NOT PRESS
LONG WINDED AND BORING.
BOUNCE RIGHT OFF

Nothing Penguinboy said was anything other than personal opinion (which is fine) or plain old mistakes in observation.

I'm sorry it didn't suit you, Penguin, old bean, but there are a lot of people out there enjoying it a lot more than you seem to have. We can't please everyone.

Perhaps not obvious, but hint a little more pointedly at what's to come, to get the player used to the gameplay. Episode Two did it (pretty obviously) when the player is reintroduced to the controls and the nature of the Gravity Gun, which is expanded upon with further puzzles down the track.

I personally haven't played this mod yet, so I will say absolutely nothing about it. If this thread degenerates into a flame fest, I will close it.

Trapt
You cannot assume that a player will know exactly what to do,

You're right - but we can hope that players might like to think for themselves, rather than be herded like sheep.

After 3 levels of monotonous, uninteresting gameplay, I finally get to fight some enemies! But I don't have a crowbar, gun or suit, since you allowed players to continue without these essential items. I had to cheat and use give item_suit and weapon_crowbar to continue.

You can't get to map 3 legitimately without the crowbar and the suit.

It doesn't suit everyone, true, but I must say that you made some pretty poor gameplay decisions which are bound to turn off a lot of people, including the need to look for/stumble upon essential items.

Penguinboy's suggestion of gateways was a perfectly good idea, and I think your mod would be better off with them so players cannot continue with the mod until they get the essential items (suit and crowbar, for a start).

DO NOT PRESS was also bullshit IMO, little inside jokes are fine, but being killed with no defence because you pressed a big bright red button with a small, dark 'Do Not Press' sign above it is no fun, really.

And I also found it long winded and boring.

Just because he used caps and was somewhat straight to the point with it, it doesn't mean all of his criticism was bullshit. In fact, I am inclined to agree with some, if not most, of it.

There is a gateway for the crowbar*. There is a gateway for the suit. You can't get far past them (without cheating) without getting the items.

How did you get to map 3???

*(There are some additional crowbars before the gateway too)

I probably spawned the item_suit and crowbar on level 2 then. It was whenever you had to break that fragile pad thing to open the door. Either way, I had to spawn it cos I didn't pick them up on the way.

A gateway is when you cannot go ANYWHERE NEAR past it until you get the essential items. Think about HL2 - You cannot continue until you get the HEV suit (cos the conversation in the lab won't start until you get it) and you cannot continue until you get the crowbar from Barney since there are breakable planks immediately after.

The player should not be able to continue ANYWHERE past the point of getting the crowbar/suit until they get it. That's just the way it is.

Also, players DO need to be herded like sheep or they get frustrated and bored. That's just the way it is.

edit: I should mention that I found the crowbar behind (breakable?) glass in the first 5 button 'puzzle.' I had no way to break it though as I had nothing to break it with.

The player should not be able to continue ANYWHERE past the point of getting the crowbar/suit until they get it. That's just the way it is.

You do have a point. But it is a matter of opinion too. And my opinion here, is obviously different to yours.

Also, players DO need to be herded like sheep or they get frustrated and bored. That's just the way it is.

This mod is not for people who fall into this category.
If you fall into this category of people, you probably won't enjoy Citizen too much.

Backtracking to get an essential item is no fun for anyone. It's boring, in fact.

You do have a point. But it is a matter of opinion too. And my opinion here, is obviously different to yours.

I don't see how this is a matter of opinion, but we can agree to disagree I suppose.

This mod is not for people who fall into this category.
If you fall into this category of people, you probably won't enjoy Citizen too much.

Not really. To enjoy this mod, you'll need great amounts of patience because most of what I played involved no combat and puzzles with no clear solutions (just a whole bunch of luck, really).

That's not to say some people won't enjoy it, though.

we can agree to disagree I suppose.

Lets!

Problem is, setting it in an established world with established gameplay mechanics without making the player more aware of your changed mechanics is bound to throw off a fair few.

I agree with Ant.

Also, I think it is fair to compare this mod with a game like Myst. The player has no clear indication of what they're meant to do, but they can 'solve' it eventually if they keep trying. D:

Fair point.

Me, I like to think outside the box with every game I play.

Must be hard to find those games then.

The player has no clear indication of what they're meant to do

I don't think that's true. I think what to do becomes very obvious after you get through map 1, if you pay close attention.

The player is not forced to pay attention, that is part of the issue. Especially when the only hints you get are incredibly subtle hints on the walls which are hidden in darkness.

VALVe forces the player to pay attention to things that they want the player to see via dialogue and lighting of important areas. Maybe you should take a look at that.

look, have you listened to valve's various commentary? they stress REPEATEDLY that they have to work hard to direct player's attention to a part of the map/gameplay.

here's how i would have fixed the many problems:

1. get someone to tell you to talk to x person wearing the red shirt or something similar.

2. remove the DO NOT PRESS button and make the door significant in some way, such as putting bright lights or making it significantly different in theme, then the character that gives you the keycard points you in the right direction.

2a. make the 'guard avoid' bit more obvious. i dont know what the hell you're supposed to do, but it doesn't seem anyone has figured it out yet. i didn't see where the guard was until it said i has been spotted. it took me about 5 tries to get that because there was seemingly no connection between anything. don't make the player solve a puzzle while they're being shot at and defenseless.

3. put in a gateway for the crowbar.

4. use a 'training' mechanic for the button combo doors. a simple room with light focused on the switches with the door numbers, and rebel-scribble/graffiti pointing from the numbers to the correct switches. this gives the player a mind link to look for combinations when they see buttons.

5. allow the player to skip the long long long speeches. for example, put the keycard on the table and dont lock them in! thats just nasty.

6. make the airboat parts more obvious. i skipped the (presumably) gate puzzle and proceeded on foot because i could. put more toxic in. if you wanted people to actually open that gate.

i could go on but i've forgotten most of the rest. the point is that a string of bad gameplay decisions made this mod not fun at all, where small changes could have improved it massively.
as a mod for a fast-paced combat game with slow-paced puzzle solving, you can't expect a player to enjoy a mod with slow-paced combat and fast-paced puzzle solving.

It obviously just didn't click with you.

If you go read Phillips review on PP, you'll hear about a different perspective, from someone who appreciated what the game was really about.

And aside from that, we can all just agree to disagree.

/edit the post above wasn't there when I posted this

i dont know what the hell you're supposed to do, but it doesn't seem anyone has figured it out yet. i didn't see where the guard was until it said i has been spotted. it took me about 5 tries to get that because there was seemingly no connection between anything. don't make the player solve a puzzle while they're being shot at and defenseless.

It's been figured out by many people. It's easy. My mind boggles why you can't work that bit out, I'm serious. The cop doesn't shoot you unless you irritate him! By "irritate" I mean "get within 10 feet of" or "damage"

make several things more obvious

No. Part of the point. Sorry if you don't like it. It's already pretty obvious that this mod wasn't made for players like you.

put in a gateway for the crowbar.

There is one. You might have to backtrack for, ooh, 10 seconds if you failed to solve the previous puzzle properly. Sorry about making your feet sore.

get someone to tell you to talk to x person wearing the red shirt or something similar.

I just think that would be insulting.

How obvious do you want it? Oh, I see....... :

you don't seem to understand. as FPS players, people don't expect obscure things in the dark to be the only way through. i saw that crowbar in the sewer bit, but it was behind glass you had to break with a crowbar to get to! i'm sure theres some obscure way to get it, but thats not how a player thinks.
same goes for the guard. put him behind glass or something, with the back to the player so you know that he actually exists.

thats not how a player thinks.

Change that to "that's not how SOME players think" and I'll agree with you.

Because some players definately do think that way.

I'd bet it's more than you think, too.

behind glass you had to break with a crowbar

Or you could use a brick?

You seem to have aimed this mod at a very small demographic. That was your choice (not the smartest move IMO).

You need to understand that it's easy for you to do because you MADE the thing - you know all the solutions already. It's not so easy for a first-time player, and a lot of these players will just get bored or frustrated if they're stuck looking for something to break the glass or whatever with after 5 minutes or so.

i can't change it to "some people", because i'm talking about a regular HL2 player. Valve don't put pathways in obscure places.
I don't play RPGs, but i think i can safely assume that RPG players would "get" this map, at least better than all the people posting here, but they are too busy playing RPGs. which follows on to the fact that, if you can't direct the attention of the player, the FPS player, you can't hold the attention of said player.
personally I find RPGs ridiculously monotonous and generally boring, thats the reason i play FPS games. now i realise that quite a few people playing the mod may like RPGs, and good for them if they enjoy the mod.

as i said before, i'm only offering my opinion, and from other people's postings, they agree with some of the point's i've made and brought up other points as well, ones that i didn't have trouble with.

i just think that perhaps you should have concentrated less on prop placement and voice acting and more on logical gameplay decisions and analysing it from a different person's point of view. where you might say "well thats obvious, nobody can miss that", others will say "i'm stuck, what the hell do i do?". if you had any playtesters at all, it doesn't show.

So I'm interested, did you have any playtesters or anything, or was it just you and Kasperg, who obviously know how to do everything in the mod correctly? Because that could really have made a difference.

You can't please everyone all at once.

/edit, cos posts have a habit of appearing while I'm typing

We did have playtesters. 4 of them. We'd have liked more. But they're not the easiest thing to get reliable ones of.

Did you make a "playtesters wanted" thread in here? Would've solved that problem real quick.

I think the only real issues are the bugs that have happened to everyone.
Not being able to solve basic puzzles is a problem within the player. Some people can, others cannot. It doesn't mean the game or mod was badly made, it just means it was thought for a different approach in gameplay that requeries a attention to detail some people don't have. I'm not insulting anyone. FPS have this thoughtless thing about them. Minerva is pretty much run-and-shoot most of the time.
I han't made any decisions in the second map (the sewers) until Playbus sent me the map. It took me 10 seconds to figure out the button and door combinations, and about five minutes to use a brick to break the glass. Without him telling me anything. No hints at all. Same with playtesters.
Yes, we did use gateways for the crowbar and the HEV suit. And hints on where you need to have gotten them already. So unless we start putting big neon signs, I don't know how we could've done that easier.

So, the big question is. Who do we pay attention to? The people whose style of direct thoughtless gameplay felt out of place here? or the people who had no trouble whatsoever while playing the mod and enjoyed it the way we envisioned?
As Playbus said, we can't please everyone. For the next installment, we're probably going to aim it at the same demographic. After all, we're not Valve. We didn't make anyone pay to play. Next time, those who hated it can be sure to avoid it, and everyone will be happy

ok, i gave up reading the flames after Penguinboy's numeric list of points.

Why do people keep saying the following 2 things:

1) ITS IMPOZZIBLES 2 GET PAST DAT GUARD!
i just.. you know.. walked to the garage door when his back was turned.

2) NO CROWBHARX CANT GET PAST BREAKABLE GLASS "as I had nothing to break it with."
You know, those concrete blocks littered around the place look kinda heavy..

Seriously.. I understand that you've made valid points since, pengy, but your original "review" is bullshit and i had come to expect more from you.

The airboat sequence for me seems to have lasted longer than anyone else.. I drove over water, slime, through windows, through combine, past snipers.. Lots of laughs before having to finally say goodbye to the faithful machine, which personally i think should have been re-skinned.

Oh, and the section where the guy gets hit by the sniper (kasperg, there are definately at least 5 of those bastards and you have to find the wheel, it would have been bloody immense if it had been used as the basketball hoop. I was almost disappointed when i found it. =]

The voice acting was fine. The only character who i thought had kinda poopy voice acting was the leader of the rebel squad.. He was just emtionless. SPOILER i mean his good friend has just betrayed him and left him for dead and he just talks in the same dulset tone.

Anyhoo, while some things, namely talking to that girl at the start could have been more obvious, the people flaming should have tried a little harder before deciding it was shit.. I mean, the breakable glass is a perfect example. Obviously if the crowbar is BEHIND the glass you need something else to break it.

I'm truly dissappointed at the reaction to this mod some of you have taken, and I want Playbus and Kasperg to know that at least some of us liked it :>

Oops. I just remembered about two more snipers. Thanks (where's the fifth?)

1)basketball court
2)Tunnels
3)church
4)yellow warehouse

it would have been bloody immense if it had been used as the basketball hoop.

Nice idea! I wonder how confused some people would have gotten about that

Pssst. Kasperg. Just after you leave Moe's store -- sniper on the fire escape

i cant help if i express my opinions strongly, but i stand by the initial review because thats exactly how i felt right after i played the mod.

with the crowbar, i saw it next to a sign that said "break in case of emergency" and thought it was another joke because in every single hl2 game/mod i've used the crowbar to break everything. never have i used a brick. i didn't even know you could. (hence i thought it was a joke, you need a crowbar to get the crowbar)

i'm not saying the mechanics are bad, but as ant said, you've changed the mechanics of the environment and not informed the player about it. which is a bad gameplay decision.

also, roller door? i think we're talking about 2 different guards...

I never count that one! He never gets me
And I agree with Playbus. If we had used the basketball hoop as the wheel, the complaints would be horrible. Perhaps as a second option it wouldn't have been a bad idea.
One thing I'd like to mention too. Anyone who has played any of Playbus's maps (Day13,14,15) probably had an advantage as to knowing how difficult some of the puzzles could be.
About changing the gameplay mechanics. It's true, but what is a mod if you don't modify anything?

The triangular peg doesn't fit in the square hole !!!! omg!!!!

well nothing will change anything now, but you need more playtesters for any of these future installments you're talking about. from this site so they can offer real criticism such as i've tried to give you (and was subsequently ignored, but oh well). (and not "those people" who'll just say how good it is and not give criticism on it. you know who they are.)

You're absolutely right. But there's a difference between constructive criticism and what some people do.

and not "those people" who'll just say how good it is and not give criticism on it. you know who they are.

To be honest, I don't. In the +90 comments in Planet Phillip and Snarkpit, there's a lot of people I had never heard about who comment on the mod...

i'm talking about the people on THIS site. and you can make snide quips about how much you're ignoring my comments, but it wont stop the mod from getting any better. negative feedback is what you should be listening to.
but i suppose you have to be completely arrogant. whatever, i'm out of this thread.

Simmer down folks, or I'll bring out the Gimp

Do I have to put on that rubber outfit again Ant, thought that was just a private thing between you and I.......

negative feedback is what you should be listening to.

To be fair, the majority of your feedback was just you basically saying "I can't work out what to do by myself."

Which is fine.

But you seem to be in the minority, out of the people who have played it.

We already have a list of bugs we need to fix. But among them I'm not willing to add "Make the door number overlays three times as big and glowing" or "Make the girl with the white top be waiting right outside your door" or "Give the player a crowbar to break out of his own room" or "straighten up maps4-6 so people can do airboat racing". I hope you understand what I mean.

Ooh I only just saw that new review on Snark.

Seems that guy liked it

And I have no idea who he is either.

Jesus Christ.
Who the hell cares if this mod sucks or not. Personally, i found it was a refreshing escape from the regular half life world. I had to replay it a few times because the first time i came up the stairs in the first level i hit the button without seeing what it said.

If you don't like it, don't play it.

Simple as that.