"Your opinion? Young man, I am the better mapper. You don't have the authority to have an opinion, and if you don't like my work you are jealous."

I have never said that. You can always have an opinion, but that doesn't give you any authority over those who have clearly done more than you on any given subject. All your rights to speak out are cancelled by the rights of others to ignore you. It can't get simpler than that.
While I've changed many things in my maps in this decade, I was certainly not going to put up with the childish rants of people like Trapt or Ant when they were based on their subjective opinions, and as such had no reason whatsoever to force me to change my initial texture or lighting schemes. You can call it arrogance or chips or fries, but I've had a lot of university subjects and classes on colour theory, lighting, construction etc, enough to not deserve some of my choices to be defined as "random" out of ignorance or malice.

If players like it they will say so. If they don't, well, then they just didn't think it was that great - if you didn't do it to please them, who cares?

You're wrong. I said I should be the #1 person who'd have to be pleased with my maps, but not the only one. I make my maps for myself and for those who'll enjoy them (people who have similar tastes in architectural, gameplay or even story aspects as me).
You talk of players as a unified group of people, yet not everyone likes the same maps and mods. So even if 2000 people disliked my map and 500 people liked it, I'd still prefer to keep those 500 people and myself happy. Who wouldn't?
Get it your head, we are not in the game industry. The number of people we please does not translate to money. Hence, it becomes secondary.

All your rights to speak out are cancelled by the rights of others to ignore you.

Why? One right doesn't cancel the other.

I was certainly not going to put up with the childish rants of people like Trapt or Ant when they were based on their subjective opinions, and as such had no reason whatsoever to force me to change my initial texture or lighting schemes. You can call it arrogance or chips or fries, but I've had a lot of university subjects and classes on colour theory, lighting, construction etc, enough to not deserve some of my choices to be defined as "random" out of ignorance or malice.

Well, I didn't see these alledged rants so I don't really have an opinion, although your perception of what looks and plays well doesn't get more "right" just because you're educated, since opinions always are subjective. Just because you can paint really well doesn't mean the paintings you like are better, that's just your personal opinion. You still make it sound like everyone has an opinion - but yours is just a little bit better because you just know a little bit more then everyone else.

You talk of players as a unified group of people, yet not everyone likes the same maps and mods. So even if 2000 people disliked my map and 500 people liked it, I'd still prefer to keep those 500 people and myself happy. Who wouldn't?
Get it your head, we are not in the game industry. The number of people we please does not translate to money. Hence, it becomes secondary.

No, you misunderstood. I agree. What I meant was ignore the people who doesn't like it and enjoy the positive feedback you get, just like you're saying.

tl;dr

)

I dunno what happened originally, but just from this thread, i feel like i agree with elements of both parties. I HATE it when someone who has never made a decent map in their life rates an amazing map 3 stars because of a bunch of bullshit reasons (not to mention people who intentionally downrate maps because they don't like the mapper is just balls). At the same time, if you just butthole-blow for the whole review, you're really not doing a thing to help the mapper get better, and no map is perfect no matter who makes it (some come close tho =>).

I guess i'll just end my inconsequential rant with a cliche, and say that i guess you should look for a happy medium between the two when rating/commenting on someones work.

With all that old talk of "arrogance!" etc, I'd like to hear anyone whom I might have offended in any of my map vault reviews of their maps or threads about their WIP stuff. Seriously. Did I ever do that? Am I doing that now in Moddb or Planet Phillip?
According to Penguinboy, all my input on other people's maps and mods should have showed some continuous "better than thou" attitude. Did that really happen? Can you give examples? I always tried to be both helpful and diplomatic. I still do the same to this day.
Of course, I couldn't be as diplomatic when facing those ignorant one-liners from Trapt & Co, or Penguinboy blaming us for the obvious actions in "The Citizen" that hundreds of players were able to pull off but which got him and a few others very frustrated, angry and jumpy(as if we owed them anything? Yeah right.)
It's funny that "The Citizen" being the same flawed creation in all the sites were it was submitted, and the authors being the same "arrogant people who can't take criticism", TWHL was the ONLY place in which any real argument took place.
Stop searching for excuses and do the math. The fault was here among you. Everyone else in the Internet seems to have some manners and knowledge on how to be helpful and thankful at the same time.

No, you misunderstood. I agree. What I meant was ignore the people who doesn't like it and enjoy the positive feedback you get, just like you're saying.

There are mainly two kinds of feedback: real, and made up.

-The real feedback can be subjective
"I enjoyed this"
"I didn't enjoy this"
or objective:
"This needs fixing because of this and that..."
"That sequence was perfectly timed..."

-The made up feedback is always subjective, yet tries to be objective:
"I didn't like this map, hence it's crap"
"I don't like the freedom of your texture scheme, hence it looks awful"
"Your lighting isn't spotty and blue, meaning it's crap"
"I found your puzzles hard to figure out, which makes the game bad for everyone".

Obviously, I only have issues with made up feedback. I have never discarded technical feedback, and I've always welcomed any positive comments which meant that the map or mod worked subjectively as entertainment for other people besides me.
But your subjective dislike? Your subjective preferences for things that are open to interpretation? You can keep those and apply them for your own maps, enlightening the rest of us with your skills, not your easy words.

Edit

Why? One right doesn't cancel the other.

What I mean is, no-one forces you to comment on maps or mods. You're free to do so, and free to skip the whole process. Now if you do participate, don't expect others to forcefully accept your personal views, suggestions etc. They have a right to dismiss your incredibly valuable input as much as you have of giving it. If you keep knocking on the door once someone has said it's closed, don't expect smiles and pats on the back. Live with it.

... Haha, everyone ignored striker.

I can't even be bothered reading all this bulls**t. Everyone is equal. If you put some hard work into a map/mod, you should be commended. But just because its good, doesn't mean everyone will like it. (Along the same lines, just because everyone likes something, doesn't mean its good.)

Some douchebags will critise a map for no good reason, but thats their problem. If you think a map/mod is great, cool! Go get some cake! If you think something can be done better, let them know. They don't have to listen to you, but if it makes it better, why wouldnt you listen?

This argument is stupid, and I expect I'll be mostly ignored. I also couldnt give half a f**k whether you keep fighting or not, just remember that if no one acts like a douchebag, then this kind of arguement won't return.

(And SlayerA hasn't posted yet.)

I want to comment on something ChickenFist said.

your perception of what looks and plays well doesn't get more "right" just because you're educated, since opinions always are subjective

To be honest, I think subjective opinions should not be part of any map or mod review unless they are positive and encourage more maps from the author or authors.
Objective information (what areas need to be brighter for better map navigation, what weapon needs to be replaced, how the layout should really flow etc) is what should make up a review. Something that's actually helpful. Not all that "Your lighting is crap" "I hate factory themed maps" "It's too difficult for my brain to figure out" "Needs green lights instead of blue" "your blue clashes with the grey and makes my eyes bleed" crap that you read all the time.

If you don't like something, and have no real idea on how to make it objectively better, then don't torture the rest of the world with your "opinions". No-one gives a damn if Minerva:Metastasis had zero voice acting, no friendly NPC interaction, relied on backtracking more than vainilla HL2 or had no new significant themes and materials. The focus was obviously not there! Try to understand the intentions and objectives of something before even attempting to mention its flaws.

I don't care who you are, if you've taken the time to develop a mod and then go release it on multiple mapping sites, you're obviously looking for a little bit more than personal artistic gratification. When you go to that much effort and release your mod to the public, you're doing it because you want your work to pay off, and you want people to enjoy playing it as much as you enjoyed making it. If you genuinely aren't trying to appeal to anyone's taste in mods, then there's not much point in releasing it - after all, nobody cares how much the author likes his work, people want to play stuff they enjoy.

Now, I don't want to sound all preachy and self-righteous here, but maybe that's the difference between you and a lot of other modders out there. Personally, I get more pleasure from seeing others enjoy my work than I get from just accomplishing personal goals. That's why I put stuff out there that I think other folks will like, because it makes me happy to see them enjoying the fruits of my labor.

if you've taken the time to develop a mod and then go release it on multiple mapping sites, you're obviously looking for a little bit more than personal artistic gratification

Of course. Has anyone denied that? What I've said is that a mappers artistic gratification is the top priority, not the only one. I just thought that was more or less clear. The more people can enjoy what I've made and *I* enjoy, the better, as it's an extra. "Not only am I happy with what I've done, but I've gotten other people to have a fun time with it". That's basically the goal.

If you genuinely aren't trying to appeal to anyone's taste in mods, then there's not much point in releasing it

A mapper or mod maker is (or should) trying to appeal to those people who have similar tastes to his own. That begins with the game chosen to map for, continues with the theme, style of gameplay etc.

nobody cares how much the author likes his work, people want to play stuff they enjoy.

If the author really likes his work, it usually shows. It's easy to spot maps that have been made with/without inspiration, with/without a clear idea or goal behind them. At least most of the time.

Edit:

maybe that's the difference between you and a lot of other modders out there

Sure. Ever wondered why so many promising mods (specially long singleplayer ones)end up dying? Don't you think it's related?
It's not a single map you're talking about. It might be 10, 20 maps. If you're not pleased with the results yourself, you'll think others won't be either. Or, there isn't a strong enough idea behind it, making your interest fade away, since there isn't even the promise of money (or the danger of being fired) in the horizon.

Oh. I guess I don't see what you're all arguing about then.

Hmm. Time for a reality check, sir.

SHOCK: People do things to benefit others!
Example: the entire open source community.

HORROR: You don't have to be an expert in the field to comment on the quality of a product!
Example: I doubt many respected film critics have direced a film, and the same goes for any other media. Users of a program can instantly tell if the program is bad, because it doesn't do what they expect/want. Ever hear of the saying "the customer is always right"?

If you map for your own purposes, that's your business. In that case, you would be the only customer, and the hell with everyone else. But don't claim that others have no right to tell you their subjective opinions because you think you're better at mapping than them. Don't deny this, as you've already said it several times.

According to Penguinboy, all my input on other people's maps and mods should have showed some continuous "better than thou" attitude.

Don't make shit up.

I find it odd that i was more pissed off by cstriker using a capital B in my username than all this bullshit Mr. High-and-Mighty is vomiting out. Maybe because I know that he is a lost cause, and cstriker is fun to ban.

Anyway, all I can say in the end is I'm glad you left. In the time since you left, you've turned into more of an ass than myself, trapt, etc etc combined. Also, Strider is the LAST person I'd consider an asshole, he's one the most unbiased people on the site.

Well, I still hold the premise that the mapper (who is a mapper willingly and in his own free time) has to be pleased with what he's doing over the rest of the world. I'm not talking about big mods teams, but even beginner mappers.
Mapping, fixing leaks, finding errors, texturing, playtesting, optimizing etc can become such a huge task that doing so primarily "for the enjoyment of others" in an altruistic fashion is a dumb concept. Or at least smells like masochism to me. And the bad kind.
I count the number of maps I made before ever submitting one online to be around 15. More than enough to define the parameters of who had to be pleased with what I was doing. Some friends played a few of them over LAN, we had a good time, period.
You might argue that it's a mistake to submit maps to sites in which other people can voice their opinions, but with little to zero knowledge of making websites, submitting maps to these sites was the faster way of getting other players (those with similar tastes to mine) to enjoy them, as my friends had done in the past.
The whole "you must catter to the will of the masses" "Your map must be enjoyed by the majority, otherwise it sucks" is just our capitalistic minds infecting every area of our lifes, even the way we carry out our pass-time activities and hobbies. Because that's what mapping is to many.

The whole "you must catter to the will of the masses" "Your map must be enjoyed by the majority, otherwise it sucks" is just our capitalistic minds infecting every area of our lifes

It's more like communism, given that we aren't capitalizing on anything.

Well, yeah. You know what I mean. Thinking that a map or mod has to perform like, look like, and/or meet every quality standard of a retail game. Which is plainly stupid, unless that's really your goal and you're looking for a job related to that...

HORROR: You don't have to be an expert in the field to comment on the quality of a product!

First, being able to comment doesn't make you an authority on the subject.
Second, maps are not products. You play them for free, giving the maker nothing in return. Hence, swallow your complaints and wait for the refund. If they like your suggestions, they might apply them and improve. If they find them stupid, live with it. They don't owe you anything.

don't claim that others have no right to tell you their subjective opinions because you think you're better at mapping than them

They have all the right in the world, as so have I to dismiss their opinions. Or does this freedom just work in the direction that's convenient to you?

Anyway, all I can say in the end is I'm glad you left.

So much that you still remembered me a year and a half-later. You flatter me, and I don't deserve it.

In the time since you left, you've turned into more of an ass than myself, trapt, etc etc combined.

Aww. That means I'll finish last in your "Best person on Earth" compo. I'll skip it and give the next one a try

Also, Strider is the LAST person I'd consider an asshole, he's one the most unbiased people on the site.

He seemed that way, as did most of you (not Trapt. He never grew up), until the moderator powers fell upon you and your true personalities showed up. It's always easier to taunt the one with the sword when you're carrying a gun, I bet.

I feel bad now. I didn't mean to smoke Kasperg out and cause this drama.

Kaspy, you've got nothing to prove so honestly you should stop replying. It's really pointless trying to talk to them now that they have a sort of "gap" that won't listen to reason.

Heh this drama reminds me of an age old thread...

Habboi, maybe I don't have to prove anything, but I do have to explain some things. In their own twisted way, these individuals spread the lies that I had left because of some stupid "arrogance" or "can't take criticism" issue. As I mentioned before, being deliberately silenced by a moderator is the only reason I left (I even talked to Daubster about it, but I bet he never mentioned it to anyone else). No point in "playing the game" when one team can change the rules at will. Does anyone disagree?
A lot of people here I appreciated and still do. But having my maps in a site run by children (mentally at least) who could potentially write stuff in any of my posts, MV entries, journals (Exos anyone?) didn't feel fitting. You can't have moderators be the ones creating and fueling the arguments. It's like politicians trying to be judges and cops. It can't happen, it shouldn't happen.
In any case, I no longer make DM maps or short maps at all, so I wasn't going to put anything in the map vault anymore. My singleplayer projects are bigger now, and you're all free to comment on them in the places they are/will be hosted. Of course, since I can delete the comments I don't like over at Moddb (and so can Phillip at Planetphillip.com), I bet a few of the people here wouldn't bother to enlighten us with their "constructive" input there. Which means that the intention was not one of helping, but instead flaming out of some personal frustration (which we haven't encountered in any of the other places where we host stuff, surprisingly!)

Your arguments are immature and pointless. Furthermore, I think you misunderstand the purpose of being a moderator on a website. It has nothing to do with power, authority or being "better" than anyone. It has to do with keeping the rubbish out of a website. I don't know about anyone else, but I have never abused my admin powers, and I have never held them over someone's head as a threat, as you claim.

I'm going to "silence" this thread now. Say I have a god complex; say I'm abusing my authority; but honestly, you've turned a reasonably pointless thread into a pile of crap, and I, as a moderator, don't wish it to continue dirtying up the site.