While I'm well aware that the two-year-old HL2 mod "The Citizen" went down about as well as an anvil in your lemon sorbet - due in no small way to the way Kasperg responded to criticism - I still think you should check out the sequel which was released yesterday.

The Citizen: Part II.

It's not perfect, and a few of the complaints from the original mod still made it into this one, but it's a vast, vast improvement and is well worth playing.
I go into more detail in my review.

Heh, I saw him playing The Citizen 2 yesterday on Steam, and didn't actually observe the "2" :).

what fun is it playing an awful kasperg mod if he isn't around to have a cry about legitimate criticisms?

As much as the size of Kasperg's head astounds me, I really can't come up with an excuse not to play this. Sure, The Citizen had its bad (BAD) parts but it also had some pretty damn good fuckin mapping whether we like it or not.

maybe I'll be able to finish this one without getting stuck and frustrated.

what fun is it playing an awful kasperg mod if he isn't around to have a cry about legitimate criticisms?

Well, we already have our mod hosted on a few sites where kids like you in particular can't offer the kind of feedback that, although sometimes accurate and well founded, came across as being nothing but a try of having a go at Playbus or me on a personal level. The reasons you had to take that kind of approach for feedback were very obvious, but I won't describe them lest the size of my head grows bigger

it also had some pretty damn good fuckin mapping whether we like it or not.

And why wouldn't you like it? This is what I mean about the feeling of resentment. It shows I wasn't making anything up. I'm happy whenever someone makes a map or mod I can enjoy. Doesn't matter who it is.

Huntey's review adresses some important points about pacing and gameplay which we are sure to adress for the final release. Some of those issues and different ones have showed up in comments and we've taken note, discussed some of them etc. No ego fights anywhere. No insults, no-one crying foul, absolutely no personal issues at all... Do the math and find out where the real ego problem was!
And play the mod too. There are 9 maps so far and you might find at least something you like among all of it, even if more work is clearly needed.

Heh, some people never change.

i love how kasperg's post implies that the ego problem was mine whilst simultaneously confirming the complete opposite.

oh, the irony.

No, I'm just toying with you and making your bitterness surface again in every single post where you mention me or have mentioned me over these past years.
Keep doing it, please. It just confirms what I wrote above.

And ask yourself again, why this isn't happening in any other place where my mods are being discussed. The maps are all the same, their flaws and virtues are all the same, the mappers answering to feedback are the same...

Do the math!

And why wouldn't you like it?

Because you made me fight a strider in a space barely big enough for it to walk, and hid the rocket launchers. Because you made a button that made me die. Because you made me drive an airboat through an allyway and then get out. I honestly don't remember much more.

I still don't understand why you don't understand and cannot convince you, so I won't try.

Learn to take a GOD DAMNED COMPLIMENT. I was DEFENDING your mod, for no reason. I certainly won't make that mistake twice.

om grom grom grom

I was actually asking about the "whether we like it or not phrase"!

That's why I quoted it. You see? Your seem predisposed to thinking I was being negative...

Thanks Huntey that's the most delicious edit block ever.

was going to add, knock off the passive-aggressive smiley faces.

I was actually asking about the "whether we like it or not phrase"!

"it" was the mod, and not everyone liked it. don't see the problem.

Do the math!

the citizen + criticism from people who know what they're talking about = tears

Could you please explain to me any reason I have to be bitter about anything you have ever done? Your logic is entirely flawed.

Is it because you believe I am jealous of your mad fucking mapping skillz omg!1 Because if so, wow.

Some people don't enjoy your mod, get over it.

Kasperg, I'm wondering why you are here at all, if all you want to do is post a bunch of passive-agressive junk about why you are right and everyone who disagrees is an idiot. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and everyone has a different standard of what is good and what isn't.

Why aren't you getting criticism anywhere else? Maybe they have lower expectations. Maybe ours are too high. Maybe you aren't idolised so much on TWHL because you reacted so agressively when you recieved harsh criticism? If you don't want to hear it, it's best to ignore it. Starting arguments just increases tensions and distances members from each other.

If you want to "come back" to TWHL and contribute (or not) to conversations, please do - I welcome it, and I'm sure many others would too. We need more source mappers, and you're obviously one of the more experienced in terms of architecture and lighting. But all you seem to do is return only to post trollish comments insulting our users (this is at least the second time it's happened).

Do you monitor TWHL simply to wait for a mention of yourself and then post retalitory comments? Please, if that's your only intention, go away.

Trapt, you're at fault here, too. If you have a beef with Kasperg, discuss it via email or less public means. I am tired of trolling flamefests on TWHL and you're not helping one bit.

Do not have a beef with Kasperg and am not bitter in any way shape or form, I was simply replying to personal attacks on my character.

I do agree with everything else you said, however.

Do not have a beef with Kasperg and am not bitter in any way shape or form, I was simply replying to personal attacks on my character.

what fun is it playing an awful kasperg mod if he isn't around to have a cry

I'm just sayin'
...

Just pretend I'm not here.

Just pretend I'm not here.

Aha! Caught you!

lol huntey, that wasn't an attack on character. that was me saying i enjoyed kasperg's hysterical responses to criticism more than the awful excuse for a mod that was 'The Citizen'.

the winky face was a nice touch.

@Blitzkrieg
See? I thought "it" represented the previous phrase and not "the mod". I think It's actually the more common use for "whether we like it or not".
Example: I'm going to see the Louvre Museum, whether you like it or not.
"It" would be "the fact that I'm going to see the Louvre", not the museum itself.
Just a simple misunderstanding.

@trapt

criticism from people who know what they're talking about

Oh yes, and I'm the arrogant one...
And please, quote one past hysterical response from me. You might find something, but so far all you do is hide behind the idea that I replied hysterically. I coul do the same and say all you ever did in your feedback was cry.

@Penguinboy
You're being quite reasonable and will try to do the same.
The problem with certain criticism (I'm rememebering yours in particular) was that it came out as a long monotonous complaint instead of any attempt at real useful feedback. You need to acknowledge this because the whole "problem" originates there. You can probably search around for your numerous "It's impossible!" statements about stuff that Playbus then explained was perfectly possible. He was a bit harsh answering you back then, but I'm sure both of us were still catching our breath after the release. That's just an example.

You've been trying to paint the picture that we couldn't take feedback when we had been doing so for 3 years prior to TC1 and have been doing so for 3 more years after TC1. Something about the story of "Evil Arrogant Kasperg" doesn't make much sense.
You also have access to all of my mapvault comments and comments on other people's WIP threads. Please show me some where I'm being condescendent, arrogant, showing a patronizing attitude and NOT defending my work in the process. I think my attitude has always been correct and respectful and helpful toward other people's work.
I know it's not the perfect example, but still: If you insult my mother and I punch you, does that give you the right to say I punch people for a living? It really isn't that different.

Why aren't you getting criticism anywhere else? Maybe they have lower expectations. Maybe ours are too high

Doesn't that sound as arrogant as anything I might have ever said?
The other places (Moddb and Planet Phillip as main examples) are full of Half-life players. If they enjoy playing what I enjoy mapping, then I've completed my task. Have fun while mapping and having people enjoy my maps.
It doesn't matter how far off from Valve's Standards I get or how many tweaks you think can be made to a map. I put the limit on how much I time I want to invest in each thing, and that's the reason why I have been able to make more than 50 multiplayer maps and more than 40 singleplayer maps. You might hate them all, but doesn't mean I didn't have a great time making them and a lot of people had fun playing them. You can't take that away from any of us and are somehow resentful for it. As in: Crap! I can make much more polished and better-lit maps than these guys, I understand Valve's gameflow ideas better than they do (Probably true) but somehow it's THEM who have released a mod that some (or quite a lot of, actually) of people are enjoying even with its flaws. If I can't reach them, I must make them fall somehow.
That's how it sounded back then, I'm sorry to say.

I was going to post TC2 here like I did with Random Quest (not that many people cared about that mod here) and I saw Huntey had made a post about it. Of course, I'd think twice before adding it now lest I contaminate Trapt's TWHL front page with some awful excuse for a mod.

And once again, I admit you're being reasonable. I just wanted to express my opinions (if I can, because sometimes it seems I'm excluded from that) now that you seem much more intent on understanding, for which I can only say thank you.

Oh yes, and I'm the arrogant one...
And please, quote one past hysterical response from me. You might find something, but so far all you do is hide behind the idea that I replied hysterically. I coul do the same and say all you ever did in your feedback was cry.

Oh yes, I must be arrogant because I claim I know what I'm talking about. Does almost 20 years of video gaming not qualify me as someone who knows what they're talking about? This has nothing to do with arrogance.

Also, I'm not going digging through ancient posts to find your responses. They're pretty well documented anyway.

Crap! I can make much more polished and better-lit maps than these guys, I understand Valve's gameflow ideas better than they do (Probably true) but somehow it's THEM who have released a mod that some (or quite a lot of, actually) of people are enjoying even with its flaws. If I can't reach them, I must make them fall somehow.

Not sure if this is directed at me or penguinboy (or anyone for that matter) but I couldn't help but laugh. I MUST MAKE THEM FALL BECAUSE I DIDN'T ENJOY THEIR MOD!!!!!!!! You're not the only one here who has contributed to a popular mod.

Get over over yourself.

Also, feel free to post TC2 in the map vault. I myself will not be playing or downloading it, especially after watching Hunter's review. I'm sure this suits us both.

Forgive me Penguinboy...

Does almost 20 years of video gaming not qualify me as someone who knows what they're talking about? This has nothing to do with arrogance.

No more than those that DID enjoy the mod and had 30 years of video gaming. I still don't see your point...And I still don't care that you didn't enjoy it. You seem to talk about it and its authors as much as you can, which does suspiciously relate to the following quoted statement...

I MUST MAKE THEM FALL BECAUSE I DIDN'T ENJOY THEIR MOD!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter how much sarcasm you try to add, it does happen and it'd be something natural, nothing to be ashamed of.
But I insist, that's how you came across. I'm not saying you actually thought that. But meh, who knows.

You're not the only one here who has contributed to a popular mod.

I'm sorry. I have never downloaded Dystopia (if that's the mod you contributed to) because it has never interested me at all...If the themes and style themselves fail to make me download it, then you haven't done your job of adding me to your target demographic.
At least we got YOU to download and play The Citizen back in 2007... I guess we cheated you with the familiar HL2 imagery, huh?

tbh after i found the "you die" button, i stopped playing.

Always meant to finish it. Never did.

So you're saying that you'll listen to criticisms from someone who did enjoy the mod but not from someone who didn't? I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here.

Since you still think I'm jealous and bitter, let me put this out there for you:
I don't care for The Citizen.
I don't care for you.
Not enjoying your mod did not make me jealous that you released a mod.
You're not the only one who has released a mod.
I have no problem with you.
You have a problem with me.
I offered criticism.
You ignored it.
You claimed it was fine because others enjoyed it.
This is not how game design works.

I don't care if you didn't download Dystopia. Many didn't. Also many did. Many people didn't enjoy it. Many people did.

I downloaded The Citizen. I didn't enjoy it.

Hopefully these short sharp sentences will let this finally sink into your thick skull after two long years.

It's never too late. You are really not punishing us by not playing, really. That's something some of your coleagues here really think.

Btw, we did manage to filter out those quirky additions from Playbus (even though I did enjoy them) from TC2 and because of it, it feels more serious than the original and less "customized". I know some people hated those extra touches (posters, rebels playing pranks, hidden easter eggs etc) but others did like them.

Look, guys, I don't want to turn this into a big flamefest, as I said. Trapt, if you want to continue this, please take it to a less-public level. I know it's hard to stop debating stuff because everyone wants the last word, but please try.

Kasperg, I realise that my criticism was too harsh and could have been worded in a much less insulting and much more constructive way. I apologise for the overly agressive tone, and over the past few years I have worked on trying to stop such behaviour. At the same time, your reaction to it was equally uncalled-for and agressive. We were both at fault.

I am not trying to be arrogant when I say that our opinions on standards may be different than other sites. Both PlanetPhillip and ModDB have (I think) a higher ratio of mod players to mod creators. As mappers, I think it naturally comes with experience that we can recognise faults that players cannot - but we are also harsher critics because we know how it is done. Of course, I am not trying to justify anyone's behaviour because of this fact, but I think it might help explain why you get different feedback from different people.

I think you should put your work onto TWHL. I know the community would appreciate it. Put whatever past differences we had behind us. Let me be the first to say that past behaviour will not be repeated.

You are really not punishing us by not playing, really. That's something some of your coleagues here really think.

Why would we want to punish you? We're not out to get you. You've got a really strange mindset.

We did release a 1.1 version of The Citizen with A LOT of corrections that came out of the TWHL forums. Why do some people still say we couldn't take or accept feedback? All lies.
To name an example off the back of my head, the sniper in the shop map aka "For Your Convenience", now kills a guy before he has a chance to kill you, as Strider suggested here.
Like that one, countless examples. A sign warning about leeches in the sewers, more brightness in the room with the 5-switch puzzles etc.

I insist there was never a problem with criticism, just with what wasn't voiced like it and what even became personal attacks. Then came the MotM thread, Strider making my shouts disspear etc. We all know the story.

I don't know how many times Trapt has said he didn't enjoy our mod (again, I couldn't care less) but everytime he mentions it he has to add some witty comment that shows he really can't let go.
Kasperg participating in a thread about Kasperg's work can be considered within norms. Trapt appearing, saying he doesn't care/doesn't like/doesn't enjoy/knows a lot/ is also the norm for this type of thread. But hey, the man doesn't have an issue with me or what I do.
Not at all.

@Penguinboy: I'm sorry, but this is something I really wanted everyone to see. And you're probably seeing it too.
And by the way:

but we are also harsher critics because we know how it is done

Trust me, not everyone does. Until you have 16 maps in your hands and want to release them as unified structure, you can't possibly have an idea of how this goes. If I spent half a year making a map ala dm_venetia (RIP), of course the level of polish could be through the roof. But one gets tired, wants to release... Really, you need to undertake the task of creating a big mod in order to understand why some things are left the way they are, some maps are more overlooked and less tested etc.

Trapt keeps reappearing because in each of your posts is some wry comment about why you're better than me and how I have such a huge problem with you.

I've had enough of your shit. Just post your mod on the map vault and leave me alone. Just be prepared that not everyone is going to love your mod, and don't cry (or at least have a bucket handy) when people voice their concerns.

I will not be returning to this thread. Please make less of a fuss when you return in another two years to post The Citizen 3.

How stupid do you think people are?

what fun is it playing an awful kasperg mod if he isn't around to have a cry about legitimate criticisms?

Where was my wry comment before that?

Stop embarrassing yourself.

People, please stop. For the love of TWHL.

There hasn't been much TWHL love for me lately, but fine.

(At least there seems to be some progress to TWHL and threads with 'discussions' taking place aren't closed rightaway while those with 'Truckloads of Fail' are kept open...)

I'll post TC2 if I'm able.

Quick, hurry and make another batch of popcorn!

Unfortunately i ate all the uncooked corns already, because Archie was being douche and wouldn't let me have some of the already popped ones.

I can just imagine the hamsters laughing.

Oh the irony in you posting here, so massive.

I'm not trying to get into this as well but, Kasperg, if you dislike twhl so much why did you bother coming here, uploading your map and then posting in this thread? I mean, come on, what did you think was going to happen?

@ Skals: I came here, posted in this thread and THEN uploaded the map.
What you say "was going to happen" did before I actually showed up, if you take a good look.

Contrary to what seemed to be popular belief here 3 years ago, I listen to any and all advice that is given as such, and out of that I make conclusions on what I should change about my maps.
In the case of TC2, Playbus and I had a debate on several gameplay concepts. If you leave feedback, we'll have a better idea of whether A or B (or even C!) was the right thing to do for each case.
It's very instructive to see that some elements we had some doubts about are actually the ones causing the biggest problems!

i'm reinstalling HL2 just to play this.. can't wait to check it out!

)

@Skals, Crollo, etc: Let's stop commenting on past dramas and keep this thread on the topic of the mod from now on.