My worst nightmare has come true.
I hate to pass judgment before I see the actual product, but this project does not sound promising.
Even with a powerful editing tool like the Source SDK, people manage to churn out mediocre puzzles and maps. With a simplified editor designed for the masses (perhaps the intellectually disabled), I can only imagine the quality of maps going places where none of us want it to go.
Mapping for Dummies?
Created 12 years ago2012-04-27 03:06:39 UTC by
satchmo
Created 12 years ago2012-04-27 03:06:39 UTC by
satchmo
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 03:06:39 UTC
Post #305754
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 03:27:35 UTC
Post #305755
Valve wants more people involved in making custom content, but i do agree with you satchmo the overall quality of levels will drop 
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 03:28:00 UTC
Post #305756
That comes off as pretty elitist. Loads of people will have really clever puzzle ideas but don't want to learn Hammer, which isn't very user-friendly and is quite buggy. Due to the format of most Portal 2 maps, a simplified editor to reach this audience makes a lot of sense.
I think that this will allow us to see many more interesting maps for Portal 2 from people who wouldn't otherwise have touched a level editor. Hell, if people enjoy doing it they'll probably "upgrade" to Hammer at some point, and that's awesome. If any tool allows the mapping community to evolve and increase in size, we should be embracing it, not rejecting it.
Valve is doing a really cool thing here, which is introducing more people to mapping and modding in general. Whether the quality is good or bad is irrelevent - we were all bad at it once. People who enjoy making maps and keep doing it will get good with practice.
I think that this will allow us to see many more interesting maps for Portal 2 from people who wouldn't otherwise have touched a level editor. Hell, if people enjoy doing it they'll probably "upgrade" to Hammer at some point, and that's awesome. If any tool allows the mapping community to evolve and increase in size, we should be embracing it, not rejecting it.
Valve is doing a really cool thing here, which is introducing more people to mapping and modding in general. Whether the quality is good or bad is irrelevent - we were all bad at it once. People who enjoy making maps and keep doing it will get good with practice.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 07:50:13 UTC
Post #305760
I think it's good that they are including this feature. Like Pb said, it would encourage more people to try out mapping for other titles.
Personally, I don't care for puzzles anyway. I played Portal 2 for the plot, the puzzles were just a fun distraction. That's probably why the co-op mode wasn't really enjoyable for me.
If the DLC is story based then great. If it is literally just a string of test chambers, I probably won't bother.
Personally, I don't care for puzzles anyway. I played Portal 2 for the plot, the puzzles were just a fun distraction. That's probably why the co-op mode wasn't really enjoyable for me.
If the DLC is story based then great. If it is literally just a string of test chambers, I probably won't bother.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 08:22:54 UTC
Post #305762
On the other hand this will probably create a number of arrogant little snobs who think that because they can use this editor, they're "pro" mappers, but what are you gonna' do! I don't have anything against it really. Seems to be a much better effort than the Alien Swarm tileset editor... or Alien Swarm in general, seeing as it's all but dead right now.
(
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 10:12:12 UTC
Post #305766
Since it's only for Portal 2 I don't suppose it's so big a deal. The results will probably all look very similar, very modular, and a skilled mapper in hammer will probably be able to distinguish his maps from these puzzles pretty easily.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 10:16:11 UTC
Post #305767
I don't see any problem in this whatsoever. For one it sounds like something that could teach kids the fundamentals of level design without overburdening them with all the advanced tech stuff.
Honestly I would've figured you of all people would love this.
Honestly I would've figured you of all people would love this.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 10:47:36 UTC
Post #305768
Yeah, as Daubster said, it will just get more people into it, than latter into Hammer editor.
This way you will have more competition and more interest. I support their idea.
This way you will have more competition and more interest. I support their idea.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 10:58:11 UTC
Post #305771
I don't understand how that tool could be a gate to the Hammer editor if it's going to make a puzzle designer's life easier. Using the same logic we can say that GMOD can be a gate to Hammer because it allows fun playing with entities, which is simply not the case imo.
I didn't need any program to use before using Hammer. And I think it's the same situation for all of us.
That doesn't mean that I think this tool isn't awesome. This is surely awesome. But we find yet again what is Valve spending their efforts on instead of HL3(also Richochet 2). I can see though this as a future implementation of HL3, a more in-game editing approach like the Crysis Sandbox.
I didn't need any program to use before using Hammer. And I think it's the same situation for all of us.
That doesn't mean that I think this tool isn't awesome. This is surely awesome. But we find yet again what is Valve spending their efforts on instead of HL3(also Richochet 2). I can see though this as a future implementation of HL3, a more in-game editing approach like the Crysis Sandbox.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 13:52:01 UTC
Post #305773
But we find yet again what is Valve spending their efforts on instead of HL3You missed the Valve employee handbook then, huh?
It doesn't work like that.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 14:40:41 UTC
Post #305776
I can see though this as a future implementation of HL3, a more in-game editing approach like the Crysis Sandbox.Now THAT is something I would be interested in. You could get the architecture down in hammer, compile. Then in-game, you could add your props, enemies, decals and other entities (kinda like GMod)... Man, I'm hoping they do add that now.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 15:46:59 UTC
Post #305780
Or like Cube (sauerbraten).
Only cube's editor is dumb.
Only cube's editor is dumb.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 18:22:50 UTC
Post #305790
I honestly can't wait until this comes out. It's what I've always wanted. You can expect about 34 maps from me by the end of May.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 18:27:56 UTC
Post #305792
You missed the Valve employee handbook then, huh?I read it. I expressed my opinion in complete acknowledgement of how Valve works.
It doesn't work like that.
Well, actually in Crysis Sandbox you just push a button and it's instant game. I don't know how to really describe the interface. Maximum awesomness.I can see though this as a future implementation of HL3, a more in-game editing approach like the Crysis Sandbox.Now THAT is something I would be interested in. You could get the architecture down in hammer, compile. Then in-game, you could add your props, enemies, decals and other entities (kinda like GMod)... Man, I'm hoping they do add that now
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-27 22:06:22 UTC
Post #305796
Hammer and Sandbox 2 work very differently. What Urby's [logically] suggesting is to use hammer for brushwork (Cryengine is based around terrain, not brushes like HL) then use the WYSIWYG style editor for entity placement.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-28 03:23:27 UTC
Post #305797
Perhaps my imagination is limited in that respect, but I cannot think of a way for an in-game editor to build very complex architecture, or puzzles that really fit outside the box for that matter.
Again, I should postpone my judgment until I see the final result of this project.
I thought Hammer strikes the best balance between flexibility and power. It is already very easy to use. Oversimplification can only result in unnecessary limitation.
Again, I should postpone my judgment until I see the final result of this project.
I thought Hammer strikes the best balance between flexibility and power. It is already very easy to use. Oversimplification can only result in unnecessary limitation.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-28 20:24:52 UTC
Post #305802
Hey, satchmo. When this comes out, show this to your son. Since it's a pretty friendly interface, it'd be cool to see some maps posted by him.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-29 02:52:33 UTC
Post #305807
OH SHIT. THIS REALLY EXISTS.
My friend has been looking forward to it for ages. When he told me about this, I thought he was misinformed. I can't imagine how this would be. Possibly an extremely modular architecture such as Bethesda's Fallout/Oblivion engine.
I'll have to tell him about it now...
My friend has been looking forward to it for ages. When he told me about this, I thought he was misinformed. I can't imagine how this would be. Possibly an extremely modular architecture such as Bethesda's Fallout/Oblivion engine.
I'll have to tell him about it now...
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-29 03:12:10 UTC
Post #305813
If you watch the trailer on it (search GameTrailers), you will see a bit of how it'll work.
Posted 12 years ago2012-04-29 09:33:11 UTC
Post #305818
Mash the left ctrl key?
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-01 02:11:09 UTC
Post #305852
Here is a detailed tutorial of how the new in-game editor will work.
It allows a test chamber to be quickly mashed together, but it does not allow the degree of flexibility that Hammer has for details in texturing and lighting. For one, the 60's or behind-the-scene style chambers are impossible with this editor.
I will definitely introduce this to my four-year-old son. But everyone older than five should probably learn how to map using Hammer, which is more versatile and powerful.
It allows a test chamber to be quickly mashed together, but it does not allow the degree of flexibility that Hammer has for details in texturing and lighting. For one, the 60's or behind-the-scene style chambers are impossible with this editor.
I will definitely introduce this to my four-year-old son. But everyone older than five should probably learn how to map using Hammer, which is more versatile and powerful.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-01 03:26:19 UTC
Post #305853
Wow, that looks really cool and is much more polished than I thought it would be.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-01 06:19:44 UTC
Post #305854
it looks amazing ^^
for sure i am going to map portal 2 stuff with the editor ^^
for sure i am going to map portal 2 stuff with the editor ^^
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-01 13:53:32 UTC
Post #305862
Oh my. This confirms my opinion about it being awesome. Although our eyes are attracted to this tool, I want to draw your attention to the fact that once this tool is released, custom maps for Portal 2 will start to look more and more standardized, and if one is an avid player, that person will gradually get bored of custom maps.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-01 13:57:31 UTC
Post #305863
If only mapping was that simple in the old days ...
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-01 23:26:12 UTC
Post #305881
Oh, and just because the editor is limited to normal test supplies, it doesn't mean that you can't add anything interesting.
You're able to export the file to Hammer editor to add your own stuff if you can't find it in the editor.
You're able to export the file to Hammer editor to add your own stuff if you can't find it in the editor.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-02 03:24:51 UTC
Post #305883
You can export ?
Maybe its not as bad as it seems, because i obviously think that there wont be any "old aperture" props and stuff or is that also included ?
Maybe its not as bad as it seems, because i obviously think that there wont be any "old aperture" props and stuff or is that also included ?
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-05 04:07:04 UTC
Post #305960
It's coming out in three days, according to reliable sources.
I was skeptical, but now I have seen it in action, I am actually thrilled.
I was skeptical, but now I have seen it in action, I am actually thrilled.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-05 09:28:52 UTC
Post #305965
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 18:12:11 UTC
Post #305995
Personally I think that while it is a good idea, it might end badly. Think of the game Happy Wheels, where if you play any of the user created levels it sometimes seems you have to wade through a sea of crap to find anything decent. And while you can export to Hammer, I get the feeling a lot of people won't, so maps might end up missing a lot of detailing and such.
In other words, while it makes it a lot more accessible to the average gamer, I think that if regular mappers move over to this the quality of the resulting works might suffer, as while it is simple it appears to have some limitations.
In other words, while it makes it a lot more accessible to the average gamer, I think that if regular mappers move over to this the quality of the resulting works might suffer, as while it is simple it appears to have some limitations.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 18:38:31 UTC
Post #305997
From what i could see on the videos, one "cube" is 128 units so making an overhang will look silly. While i do kind of agree that this was a good idea to give a start to new mappers, this also just kills mapping. If i were a noob and put together a decent test chamber using this, then heard of a tool called hammer, tried it and found out that i could barely put a room together i wouldn't use it. It just takes all the fun out of learning how to properly make levels.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 18:57:47 UTC
Post #306001
Yeah, why don't you try sticking this up your ass, see if it fits.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 19:04:30 UTC
Post #306002
Bruce is having a bad case of overtrolling
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 22:07:10 UTC
Post #306009
Think of the game Happy Wheels, where if you play any of the user created levels it sometimes seems you have to wade through a sea of crap to find anything decent.The difference being that users can rate things on SteamWorks and you can then filter by rating to only see the best contributions. Been a while since I played Happy Wheels and while I KNOW that had a rating system I don't remember being able to filter by rating.
Yeah, why don't you try sticking this up your ass, see if it fits.Do you just hate it here or something? Seriously, contribute to the conversation or just shut the fuck up. Nobody cares.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 22:09:38 UTC
Post #306011
You could. But you still had to wade through a lot of "rate 5 if you beat it\idea maps\etc" bullshit.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-06 22:11:50 UTC
Post #306013
Ah. Well hopefully screenshots will make things a little clearer. Maybe not...
Like I said, it won't matter to me. I don't enjoy puzzles much.
Like I said, it won't matter to me. I don't enjoy puzzles much.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-08 19:55:27 UTC
Post #306034
Well, I just tried it. The editor is beautiful and simple, but it seems like it's sort of beta stage. At least, in my case... I tried compiling the map and it gave me an error(did not give details, how odd!(for a mapper)). It said I should send an error file to their email address.
ALT+F4, I'm super tired.
Good night!
ALT+F4, I'm super tired.
Good night!
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-08 20:24:06 UTC
Post #306035
Same here, none of the maps I design and try to run are working.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-08 23:43:00 UTC
Post #306036
It just finished downloading for me. I'm going to try it now.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 00:10:43 UTC
Post #306037
It seems like the update broke Hammer, and in order to upload existing custom maps made in Hammer to the workshop, you have to heavily modify the maps for them to work in the workshop.
This means there is no way to upload custom maps to the workshop at the moment.
This means there is no way to upload custom maps to the workshop at the moment.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 01:16:39 UTC
Post #306039
the update broke HammerShocking.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 05:02:29 UTC
Post #306041
Instead of porting my existing maps to the workshop, I am building them from scratch.
The new editor is pretty incredible. What used to take me days to build is taking merely hours. Granted, there are some limitations, but it leaves plenty of room for a creative mind. Interesting architecture is still possible with the new editor.
The new editor is pretty incredible. What used to take me days to build is taking merely hours. Granted, there are some limitations, but it leaves plenty of room for a creative mind. Interesting architecture is still possible with the new editor.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 08:41:27 UTC
Post #306045
wow ^^ i am starting to like the editor ^^
its so simple and funny!!
edit:
i have just created my first portal2 chamber ^^
i have saved the map but i dont know where the file is located at all
its so simple and funny!!
edit:
i have just created my first portal2 chamber ^^
i have saved the map but i dont know where the file is located at all
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 19:31:23 UTC
Post #306057
its so simple and funny!!Don't you just love the animation when you break the connection between two instances?
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 21:22:10 UTC
Post #306059
do u know where the map editor save map files? ^^
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-09 21:29:35 UTC
Post #306060
It has to be in the program location folder or temp folder. Search.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-10 07:34:48 UTC
Post #306070
hmm i think they might be located in steam cloud or something
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-10 08:16:31 UTC
Post #306071
I stayed up until past 2 am, but I just published my first map that's made from the new editor to my Steam Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=69323011
It's a map inspired by my sp_interception that was designed back in August of 2011. The puzzle is somewhat different, so I don't know whether it has any bugs or exploit yet.
Let me know if you get a chance to play it.
It's a map inspired by my sp_interception that was designed back in August of 2011. The puzzle is somewhat different, so I don't know whether it has any bugs or exploit yet.
Let me know if you get a chance to play it.
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-10 10:05:42 UTC
Post #306072
I'll play yours now, Satchmo.
edit:
I can't work out how to get a cube onto the final button at the door, satch. I've gotten as far as activating the light bridge.
Here's my first one:
Clicky
I'd love to know what you think.
The editor is so intuitive and slick - it just feels so nice to use. I'd like a little more control of the environment, but I suppose since it's so easy to export to Hammer, if I really wanted to I could do that.
Ninja:
1. Open your map in the Portal ingame editor.
2. Export the map to a .vmf file with console command puzzlemaker_export a_name_for_your_map.
3. Open the map in Hammer: .../steamapps/common/portal 2/sdk_content/maps/a_name_for_your_map.vmf
edit:
I can't work out how to get a cube onto the final button at the door, satch. I've gotten as far as activating the light bridge.
Here's my first one:
Clicky
I'd love to know what you think.
The editor is so intuitive and slick - it just feels so nice to use. I'd like a little more control of the environment, but I suppose since it's so easy to export to Hammer, if I really wanted to I could do that.
Ninja:
1. Open your map in the Portal ingame editor.
2. Export the map to a .vmf file with console command puzzlemaker_export a_name_for_your_map.
3. Open the map in Hammer: .../steamapps/common/portal 2/sdk_content/maps/a_name_for_your_map.vmf
Posted 12 years ago2012-05-10 13:27:20 UTC
Post #306074
I'm going to play yours now.
I have since updated my map. The version you played had some glitches and exploits.
Were you able to get to the exit area? Hint: the solution is quite similar to the sp_interception that you reviewed for Map of the Month.
I have since updated my map. The version you played had some glitches and exploits.
Were you able to get to the exit area? Hint: the solution is quite similar to the sp_interception that you reviewed for Map of the Month.
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