I have been working on a map here for a couple weeks. It's a good idea which I intend to to finish, even if I have to restart. It's a bigger outdoor map that the players can usually see from one end to the other. I've read many threads in here talking about that = a bad idea. True as that may be, maps for cs such as awp_map, de_rats(and all the diff ones) seems to be able to work o.k. I am having a FPS issue.
With a csg,bsp,vis,rad = 4 - 6 fps.
with a csg,bsp,rad = 25 - 40 fps. <-no direct lighting.

When I started the map with no buildings just the bridge, I could see a fps issue. So I'm fairly sure it's distance related and not mainly r_speed from textures and/or complex brushes.

Like I said, this is a good idea that I really really want to see finished so I can run it on my cs server and others servers too. I did'nt post here the last two days becuase I did'nt want to just post the map for anyone to download. (the good idea) For the last two days I've been reading and reading, but turns out I need some expert advice/teaching. If there is a way to keep the map exchange through IM's that would be best. However I am now to the point where anything will do.

If someone is willing and up too helping me , please post a response and I can begin the upload of map process.

Thanks in advance..

RAA

If you drop me an IM at hatboy1 I can take a look at it.

I don't use aim however I can install it.. can I send you a email with attachment?

OK. sending rabidmonky777 my map(sendversion.zip) with aim to name "hatboy1". 7/12/04

but anyone else is interested in giving it a go.. please respons.. plz....

Very odd; you can e-mail me it (click m'name for the addy) and I'll look at it when my PC's done dying.

What graphics mode?

exactly what kind of fps problem is it, like what looks wrong when you play it? or is it an internal fps problem that doesn't let you run it?

The problem is it's an open map and has lots of detailed brushwork, thus increasing r_speeds and making it run slow.

After some help from rabid with hint brushes, the map seems to have a stable max fps of 20 - 30 with no vis.

I run cs(hl) in OpenGL mode.

the fps problem I'm having(kinda not anymore from hint brush help) is when in game and map is loaded fps drops to steady 4fps. like I said above it is now 20 - 30 with no vis. so after vis runs tonight I hopefully should get more fps. But I don't know. my friend you is just starting to map like me says vis helps with fps. but whenever I'd run vis(on this map anyway) fps drops below the max I get when not running it.. not sure why. Vis is ran in full mode aswell. most if not all of my texture scaling is 1:1 or more, which I hate cause I want more detail out of these maps..

In all of my friends maps I've played. the fps is tops 30. Maybe I'm learning some bad habits from him? In my maps I want the 80 - 100 like I get like in most standard cs maps out there.. (de_dust, cs_assault, de_nuke).

at anyrate.. I still want to get more fps out of it. what is the avg. fps you guys get in rough spots in maps that are:

bigger then usual
outside maps
1:1 texture scaling
no mdl's

O and have hint brushes all through out?

You should run a -full vis and you might see some improvement.

Ok. I ran a "full" vis last night. top fps of 4 while looking across long end of map. like 50 or up while looking at wall..

What I want to know is why when I run a CSG-BSP-RAD I get a fps of 20 -30, but when I run a CSG-BSP-VIS-RAD I get 4?

This is really confusing me, I though vis was supposed to render everything so the machine running the map does'nt.

I have a question. does things that are hidden(using the hide button in hammer), show up and/or used in compiled maps?

ERRRR!!!!!! I read a little bit more about large areas and the HLengine. Most say it can't be done. If that is true my "great Idea" is not possible. I am waiting for the HLengine supporters to speak up here. How are maps like awp_map, de_rats, etc. possible if large areas are not?

Please give me some good news..

Large is relative... experiment.

de_rats, awp_map? no room for relative there guy. you just did'nt have an answer.

anyhoo,, I just made a copy of the map, and started deleting buildings, etc.
giving a slight increase in fps. heh.. So I started adding huge vis blocker walls, one by one tested. 1fps improvement for each blocker added..

My conclusion. It must be by outide Hull demensions.
I am officially starting over for the third time. 2nd try was good. learned alot, hopefully I'll learn alot more on this third try. I'm going to go very slow, testing everything before getting all "into the map". Going to what seventh monkey adviced- experiment.

RAA

basically. i'd like to see some screenshots of the map's longest points. because depending on what exit/entry points you have placed on the two sides (ct and t, with a bridge in the middle?), could be a gameplay problem. people just popping out from corners is good and all, but you need things to make it a little more challenging, such as routes that cover you from enemy fire (but don't allow you to see the enemy) and take you to tactically advantageous spots in the map.
anyway...

if you are running vis it simply running more than if you weren't, vis only helps when there's actual brushes blocking huge lines of sight, 1 open area will not require a great deal of vis-ing; so perhaps that's your problem.

i have made nearly all my maps outside (i think it's just more fun) and i don't have problems, but that's because you can place things such as rocks/buildings/etc in places to block a players direct line of sight, but use hint brushes to allow them to see things behind the said object. so maybe you should try splitting the level into two or more areas, seperating them with buildings and the like, and hint around them. allowing the player to feel as if he is in one large complex, but really it's just three linked togetehr effectively.

does hint-ing work without vis? don't think it does =/

does hint-ing work without vis? don't think it does =/

Hint brushes are calculated when VIS is run, so no.

Raa: I haven't played either of those maps, at least not for years

to be honest, those maps are all relative to the size/detail laws
dust isn't really that big in any of it's areas, and it is, the detail is minimal.
while assault is a weak map (the max viewable distance is too low), but the detail is low, the buildings are generally falt brushes with no detail

does trees such as the .mdl models work as vis blockers?

I read somewhere that hint brushes are used before the VIS process. They said it was used in the BSP Process. I'll try and dig up the Url I read it at.
Thanks for the info all. And I think I may not endup running a VIS on this map now that someone has brang that up. I mean, I allways felt like it was a must with maps(my whole 1 month exp. hehe) But is it o.k. to not run VIS if it's not a map VIS will help? Any peoples thoughts on why I should and should not?

Anyway.. I restarted the map. ON first draft, (imagine to cubes cut open, one on top one on bottom. top cube is sky, bottom is ground w/ small height wall. I began making it with fps in mind, therfore minimizing unneeded ground brushes. (I plan on adding a few triangle landscapes later)My fps from one end to the other was about 50.
Added bridge and raised the floor on ends of bridge. FPS 30.
Messed around with hints brushes, decided I had know clue what I was doing. erased the hint brushes.
In my previous version I had four building on each end of map. very complex Structure. Ones I downloaded and edited.
I took one of the buildings that I used before and cut the walls out and made buildings using the walls and various parts of the building. there are now two buildings on ends of bridge. Tested ,, FPS 14 - 20 looking across.

That is where I'm out now. have'nt even added the floors, water, and shiz. There are many windows in builings, Question.....

IF I make the so you can't see through them as much will that help with FPS?

After a few more tries and stuff tomorrow, I think I might have to just go with hella simple buildings. (which sux, cuz I really wanted to start something for CS here).

Another question. SHould I look into NULL textures for area that are never seen my players? When ever I read about them, people talk about how the are tricky, and walls of mirrors or some shiz..

Anyway.. I see a perma grid. gotta go to bed..
thanks again for all your help..

IF I make the so you can't see through them as much will that help with FPS?

If I make the windows so you can't see through them as much will that help with FPS?

If I make the windows so you can't see through them as much will that help with FPS?

If you're not running VIS, then I'm not sure that you can do anything to prevent the entire map being rendered.

Maybe upload your map to the Map Vault?

well do you guys want me to upload my old version, or the new one?

Both in one ZIP maybe?

alright. I uploaded the two versions. new and old.

Bridge-unamed
http://cariad.co.za/twhl/mapvault_map.php?id=1567

Old version "bridgeedit2.rmf"
new version "bridgedraft2.rmf"

Both contaned in zip file "bridges.zip"

PLease take a look and especially see how/where adding hint brushes would help. I really need someone to give down to earth examples of how/where hint brushes would help this map out.

Thanks again for your help..

RAA

First of all, I love your eye for detail. I can see you really put a lot of time in this one. Now, for increasing your fps... You really 'use' a lot of available wpolys at the (church/hotel)windowframes. If you converted these ones to func_walls it would be a dramatic decrease on wpolys (and a lesser increase on epolys, since the areas around the frames won't be sliced up). Also, lower the details at the parts the players won't pay attention to anyway (like the roof of the small church). Where there is a lot of action going on or where the player can't reach, scale down the textures (use low res textures). About each texturepatch increases your wpolycount. On the blocking of vis, unfortunately for you, there isn't much to improve. One thing more, could you also upload your compiled bsp? That way we can see where the fpsdrops occur and thus we can work more efficiently

thanks for the compliment. But let me say. I take no credit for the orginal creaters of those buildings. I just downloaded and edited. I'm afraid I'm a x CAD designer trying to put CAD detail in bsps. hehe.. not going to work I see.

The bsp of "bridgeedit2"(Vis'd 9.12mb) only zips down to 5mb. And the 5mb non vis'd(csg,bsp) zips down to 3mb. for the two mb limit I can't upload them. IT will compile in less then 5min with only CSG,BSP though. I don't expect anyone to compile it with vis and rad.

Whenever I CSG,BSP,VIS,RAD a map though I see the fps is about the same as when I CSG,BSP. Is that normal?

Will tree .mdl's work as VIS blockers?

well. you could lower the sky, so it is just touhing the roofs. and hint along the sides of buildings so it doesn't render outside when you aint looking. but wow. i dont see how this will play well for cs. it looks nice, but it seems to have alot of detail in one large area that simply isn't that possible with the hl engine.
good luck =/

the bridgeedit2 is no longer. like I said I restarted it. current version (added sewers since) is bridgedraft2. Did you look at that one?

In the new version I made the windows foo foos func_wall. I am going to try the hint thing around the buildings next.

Models will not block VIS. No entities do.

k thanks for the info seventh..

I finally have a working good enough version. third times a charm huh..

well what do you think about this..
looking from long distance thing start distorting/clipping
http://img2.exs.cx/img2/1894/dist1.jpg
http://img2.exs.cx/img2/1101/dist2.jpg

I ran CSG,BSP,RAD-extra-chop 32.

go to Map/Map Properties/Max Viewable Distance - change it from 40** to 80** (** can't remember exactly, but whatever the 40-- number is, double it); that will sort out the distance, but increasing the max viewable can cause an fps drop, which wouldn't be a problem if you couldn't see the whole map at once.
and yes, the map i looked at was bridgedraft2, i didn't look at the other one. and that's why i came to my conclusion that you will never get good fps, no matter what you do, because have you ever seen a map like this before? it's because if there are any, no-one plays them for fps issues. i don't want to go on... but you need to think of a way of solving this. i personally would make two smaller streets and link them rather than one large street, this will be better for gameplay and fps.

8192 I think it is.

peace.. no I have never seen a map like this before. It is actually a idea based off a MOHAA map. But since it has never been done says to me ..... DO IT!!!!!! Anyway maybe it should be a DOD map. cuz I'm now wondering if the CS pop. is'nt really going to like this type of map. three people came on my server last night and two said they did'nt like it. so 2 out of 3. Maybe cuz it's new and I suck right now at making the map look like it's not floating in space..

But about your idea Peace
Like this ?

the one on left we'll call #1, on right, #2.

http://img18.exs.cx/img18/9969/idea.jpg