TWHL is drowning - Do something about it Created 19 years ago2004-07-25 10:31:12 UTC by hazardous!

I think that, at least after VOX's goodbye-thread, everybody knows that TWHL, as we know it, is dead.

I don't want to talk about the reasons or the question of guilt here.
I want to suggest try to keep that what made TWHL so special alive.

Me, Mephs, jaardsi and Xargol have been talking about this yesterday and considered several ideas what could be done to prevent the TWHL losing its old quality even more.
I will list them all here, regardless of what I think about them, or who suggested them.

1st idea:

• An IRC channel where all the former regulars meet.

Advantages:

• We would still have contact to the others and could discuss new projects etc.

Disadvantages:

• It wouldn't more than a simple chat. Nothing in comparison to TWHL.
• No real competitions, no place to upload maps, no forum where topics can be discussed much longer than one day.

2nd idea:

• Finding alternative communities.

Advantages:

• We would still have contact to the others and could discuss new projects etc.
• There might be a place which is not so overfilled with bratty respectless members.

Disadvantages:

• It would be quite hard to rally all former members there.
• Most of us would be new to this community, too.
• It is unlikely to find a community or mapping site that is similar to TWHL.

3rd idea:

• Add a 'Special Member Area' to TWHL.
• Only special members can decide about new special members, by election or voting.

Advantages:

• No one would have to leave this very place and we could continue as before.
• In this area, we could go on creating quality work and having serious discussions, without being disturbed by outsiders.
• TWHL would not have the same fate as many other forums or communties. Becoming a simple helpforum with 95% bratty members.

Disadvantages:

• You could consider this as an unfair discrimination.
• This would require changing the current appearance of TWHL.

4th idea:

• Form a completely new community for those old TWHL members.

Advantages:

• We would be in private for a time.
• We would still have contact to the others and could discuss new projects etc.

Disadvantages:

• It would not be the same as TWHL.
• The same thing which is happening to TWHL could happen to this place too.
• It might again be hard to rally all the old TWHLers.
• We would need a host and new administrators and moderators.

5th idea:

• More strict moderators here.

Advantages:

• Respectless and bratty behaviour would be punished by timed disabling or even banning.
• It might restore or at least keep the quality of TWHL.

Disadvantages:

• This would be discriminatory again.
• TWHL is supposed to be a place for everybody.
• This would be a fulltime job and might require more moderators.

6th idea:

• Flood TWHL with high quality work.
• Win all the competitons with extremely good entries.
• Post a lot of decent maps into the vault.

Advantages:

• This might scare off people that are only interrested in having some fun with 100kb maps.
• It would certainly raise the quality of TWHL.
• New members would have a measure so they know whether their work if good enough to be uploaded.

Disadvantages:

• Again this might result in discrimination.
• TWHL is also made for people who are not so good mappers, modellers etc.
• It might be a hard job.

7th idea:

• Similar to number 5.
• A 'report member' feature. People can report inappropriate behaviour to the moderators.
• Members who don't behave right can be banned.

Advantages:

• People would probably think before they write something from time to time.
• Ignorant brattys would be filtered out.

Disadvantages:

• Discriminatory.
• One could also abuse this featrue.
• It would also mean a lot more work for the moderators.

8th idea:

• A timed delay before new members can access the forums and the vault.

Advantages:

• People who just look for a quick fun could not spam the forums and the vault.

Disadvantages:

• This might also scare off potentially serious new members.

That's it so far.
Of course we could combine these ideas.
It's just important to do something and not just standing around while TWHL is drowning.
If you have an idea too, please reply.
If you want to express your oppinion about those, reply.
Don't reply if you don't really have an oppninion to express.
Also don't start a discussio about the reasons for the dying or the ones that are guilty.
Thank you.

twhl is dieing? really?

i think we should make a new community with only pepople tht have been here a while can join.

Meh, let's start a new, n00b-free mapping channel and set up phpbb forums where only former TWHLers and other good mappas could post and read threads.

Unfortunately, TWHL is dying. And I think most of these ideas have great potential, but no individual idea is good enough on its own. I say we do the following:

1: Get one or two more moderators to check the forums for spam, people going seriously off-topic, flaming, swearing etc. They would be part-time, but should check the forums as much as possible, keeping the moderating time realistic (Obviously, they don't have to ruin their holidays by going to internet cafes just to sort out the forums).

2: Get a team of moderators for the map vault. They could read the comments for the map, if the reaction suggests the map(s) is/are effortless, pointless, showing off, or flooding/spamming the vault, they should email the person who submitted about the problem, and if necessary, delete the map. At the moment, I have to wade through several pages of pointless maps just to find one or two that I'm looking for.

3: Encourage new people to look at tutorials before asking questions. Bring back the old forums! Originally, there was a General Mapping forum, Stuff forum, Site comments forum, and a forum for each individual tutorial (Obviously, keep the new Maps and mods forum). The individual tutorial forums meant that people would at least see a list of tutorials in the forums before going to answer questions that have been answered in the tutorials. Encourage new people to search the forums for help as well.

4: Break up the vault. Have a CS completed section (Most maps tend to be CS), a HL completed section (Second most popular), HL mod completed section (EG: Opfor, BS, TFC, Spirit etc.), Problem section (HL, mods, and CS), Example section (HL, mods, and CS), Unfinished section (HL, mods, and CS), Completed model section, Unfinished model section, and also include a mod section for any HL mods people have made. This will make finding things easier, and remove the chance of having to wade through several CS maps to find a TFC map, for example.

These idea are all very good too.
Especially the last one.
I think we need some kind of zip file scanner, which looks into the zip and checks the maps for HL entities, CS entities and neither HL nor CS entities.

But to do all this we must get atom back here for a while. It seems to be very hard to contact him.
I think Andy can help us.

yes, i bet he can. He is the second in command, right?

1: Get one or two more moderators to check the forums

Like me, Andy, and Slayer?

Bring back the old forums!

No way! They sucked.

The last one, though, that one I like and agree with - better organisation of the 'vault.

1. have the homepage layed out like this:

NEED HELP? CLICK HERE 1ST----> goes to tuts (the tuts should be renamed and better organized imo... i'll do it if the powers that be would agree)

COULDN'T FIND YOUR ANSWER THERE? CLICK THIS-----> goes to search page comes up with example of what to enter to search forums.

STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN THE ANSWER? CLICK HERE-----> new forum post.

I think this would let noobs know the procedure without having to be yelled at 100x.

2. map vault: maybe have 2 finished sections. call one "advanced" maps (instead of calling one noob or beginner maps... no one wants to admit the're a noob so they probably wouldnt post their map in a vault called "noob")

make it clear when posting a map which vault it should go in. ex: "THIS VAULT IS ONLY FOR MAPS USING ADVANCED MAPPING TECHNIQUES. THE MAP MUST BE A COMPLETE, FINISHED LEVEL WITH NO ERRORS OR PROBLEMS"

have a way to vote a noob or crap map out of the advanced section. if it gets enough "out" votes, a moderator must look at it and make the call which vault it should be in, then move it accordingly. I volunteer to help mod the vault if this is implemented.

1. Another nice idea, having the welcomeness more prominent.

2. Another good idea

I still think there should be a timelimit for map submissions.

I like both those ideas. The second makes it nice and clear, but it should also state whether it is for HL, CS, HL mods, or an actual mod, just to ensure people don't screw it up. Call them maps and advanced maps. Advanced maps would probably be things like subzone (OK, maybe that's too advanced... ) or enigma 7. I would say any maps I make would go in the regular maps section, since I tend to take the easy way out when mapping. RacerX, your first suggestion has already been done (See "where to start" in the sidebar), but we should make it a LOT more obvious. These are all excellent ideas though, and I suggest we get as many of our regular members as possible to try to sort it out. As for atom, he is actually extremely easy to contact, and replies very quickly. He just almost never appears on the site, and it's not difficult to see why. Time limits for map submissions are a good idea as well, 7th.

TWHL is dying?

I haven't noticed it.

The only thing that needs to be changed is the organization of the vault, as seventh said, and also, maybe another sometin' sometin' special and new that would keep people around? Of course, atom would be needed for that.

a picture vault, and some kind of screen-shot of the week or something.

Here's where it falls down for me. (I moved your link above handyvandal's, so I like you guys):

The maps should be judged before posted in the completed sections and deemed "worthy" of the completed title. Not an artistic judgement. A fundamental operation judgement.

Map vault needs MUCH better organization. Possibly an alternate veiw in an alphabetical or date submitted list.

Moderation needs to be stepped up in the forums. Discipline doesn't create itself. It has to be maintained.

Tutorials should be better organized. Some are self explanatory and easy to find, like "Water" or "Doors". But who looks under "U" for sprites? ("Using Sprites"). Maybe two tutorial areas. One being a straight "how-to" about all the functions in Hammer and one being a "Creations" tutorial on how to obtain certain objectives. There could possibly be several entries for one process, depending on how each individual solved their similar problem.

As far as who can become members, well, if you don't want the public to come here to browse through all your hard work and accomplishments, then surely restricting membership and creating a password is the way to go... or crawl under a rock with your tiny circle of mapping friends and stagnate. Either way, the outcome is the same. nvolvementthe only way any project stays fresh and vibrant. Without it, it will die.

RacerX, your first suggestion has already been done (See "where to start" in the sidebar), but we should make it a LOT more obvious.

that's what i'm saying, make the procedure for getting help much more obvious. notice the all caps? the instructions for noobs should stand out MUCH more predominantly then every other link. when a noob clicks on a noob link, he should be funneled through a noob flowchart like i listed above.

of course there will be direct links to all pages for non-noobs to navigate through, but once you click a noob button, your routed through the noob steps.

Hey, I could start a dedicated HL community on my domain name. A fresh installation of PHPBB to power it and a custom theme created by a member. I could get atom to port his map vault script into it and again one of our members could create a skin to fit in with the forums. It is pratical and could work. If anyone bullshits (excuse the swearing but I feel like swearing at the moment) then I or a moderator could ban em permanently. Emphasis on the ban and permanenetly. All who like my idea please say: "NEE-NEE". :-P.

Hey, don't give up just yet! We'll figure something out to keep everyone happy here on TWHL, even if it means switching to phpBB

Lol! I prefer Invision or Vbulletin to PhPbb myself but invision wont let me upload themes for some reason and you gotta pay $200 for a commercial vbulletin copy.

Also, atom, could you join my forums?

nice suggestions hazardous!

i think we probably should listen to hazardous!
and maybe we can keep TWHL alive.

P.S.: I hope TWHL isn't drowning in a pool of blood.

Discrimination > site dying.

Perhaps anonymous posting should be stopped, and people should have to read some rules before registering (only one or two, otherwise they'll skip them).

One thing which would make me so happy is, if people stopped using just caps. and put some punctuation into their sentences.

I agree with seventh anonymous posting should be stopped, people should have to agree to terms of not spamming etc. and then joining up.

the tutorials shouldn't be made into alphabetical order, but into the order of what people are most likely to need first or in hardness difficulty.
e.g. setting up hammer first, then setting up CS, then begining sections and so on.

Before posting, at the top of the box have a line of text saying "check the tutorials", to remind people.

This has been said, but it is very important.
People should not be able to rate their own maps.
The maps should only be rated by mods, but people can still download and comment.
You shouldn't be able to upload a map without a screenshot.
Maps that get below 2/5 stars should be deleted.
There should be different catorgories for each game, HL, CS,TFC,OPF, etc.

As for rating, personally I like the Snarkpit system very much. Rating can only be done with a comment, and no more than once, the rating I mean. So, you're nearly forced to explain what you liked and what not, and the map author can also see who rated and how high.
This would also prevent pesky downratings like happened to me... over a 100 ratings of 1 star on Detention, with only one extra download...

Also, I like the policy idea, this gives moderators a base to stand on, and allows them to take action when rules are violated.

Well, so far my 2 cents...

That sounds like a fair and just idea. I've seen too many maps having over 50 one star ratings when it's only been downloaded a few times. TWHL isn't dying. It just needs fine tuning.

Maps that get below 2/5 stars should be deleted.

I think there should be some human intervention.

I also think that the most important thing we need are rules.
Just one page of rules, if you want to join you have to accept them.
And if somebody breaks the rules to often, he will belocked or banned.
This would also require to disable annonymous posts.
Also I think alike about the map rating system.
Maybe everyone could add some search keywords to the tutorials, and when someone posts a thread, an automatic search system will look for one of those keywords in the thread. If one was found, it'll automatically show a list with tutorials that deal with this topics.

I like Vassy's 4th idea. I would also think a user rating and ranking system would be good. The rating system is where everyone on the site can rate a user once. If they change their mind they can back that down. It is summed up so the users have a rating out of 100. The rank system: users join with a rank of 1 and work upto 10. 10 is for really good mappers and 1 is for new people. The more maps they submit that get good scores, the quicker they will rise up the ranks. Although, the ranks cant go up too quickly otherwise people will be on rank 10 in weeks. They have to take a test at the end of the rank based on tutorials for their rank. On the other hand, having less ranks will be easier. So maybe 6 ranks. First 2 are beginner and 2nd 2 are intermediate and so on.

The map vault should be split like vassy said, but no model vault cos this is a mapping site. Then, there could be vault moderators who review each map before it is put up publicly. The official score for the map is from the moderator's review. This could mean that maps take longer to be put up, but it would filter out worthless maps. We would need alot of vault mods as it would be hard work tho. It would be better if our map vault was like snark pits. Not a similer system, but the fact that only good maps are one there (with a few exceptions). But anyway, there could be a beginners vault, and a advanced vault for each category so people with different ranks go into different vaults so they dont get mixed up with advanced maps. Also, users CANNOT vote their own maps, and only registered users can vote, and once at that.

The forums, well, the mods need to be stricter. And maybe a feature so users can edit/delete their own posts. And maybe for the mapping problems forum, a solved/unsolved icon like the snarkpit has. This would stop people bringing up old questions that are now defunc. Maybe a limited posts per minute so users have to wait 30 secs between each post to prevent major spamming.

Most of this was in my email so if andy or atom doesnt get my email, they will read this.

maybe a feature so users can edit/delete their own posts

Mentioned before, and rejected. Edits will be made if people post corrections beneath.

Not too sure about all your ranking. I don't release many maps, but I help people a lot. Also, the 'testing' would take a helluva lotta time.

<Seventh-Monkey> maybe you should have to earn the right to post in the vault
<Seventh-Monkey> say, only after being a member for a fortnight
<Seventh-Monkey> or posting ten times, etc

<Seventh-Monkey> people should be able to enter a private e-mail addy
<Seventh-Monkey> so only mods can see it
<Seventh-Monkey> and contact them r.e. their account, maps, posts, etc

heya atom, nice to meat you.

i think the vault should just start over. No more maps. only memebers with so many logins should be able to place maps into the vault. And i thnik we should kick all n00bs and people that havnt been here in a while.

No more anonymous posting. Dont start the site over.

Ummm thats a really bad idea monkeychow.
kicking all noobs. well this is a site for the "noobs"
kicking all people who havnt been on for a while. well what about pepper and vox, they are going, what if they decide to come back after 5 weeks?, what if someone goes on holiday?.

w00t. atom posted. he also came on irc and left straight away. glad tho, that was during async and m0ps mindless insult session.

nvrmnd about kicking n00bs.

but hat about the vault idea?

Well after a couple days I see the impact I had with my "Goodbye Thread" and now I believe members of TWHL are trying to fix things. So I guess I'll come back and try to help.

Ieatmonkeychow your map vault idea wont work because some people who have been here a VERY short while may have 500+ logins. It should be how long you have been here. A map vault for anyone and a map vault for 1+ year at TWHL. Same thing for forums. But I believe erasing ALL maps in the vault and starting over is good. Do this maybe every 2 years?

YAY! t3h VOX-O-MATIC has returned!!!

w00t! wb vox.

I don't think we should clear the old vault.
But we should lock it and add a new one.

Atom replied to my email and had some similer ideas to me.

VOX! Welcome back! Now we just wait for pepper....

wb indeed!

wait for pepper? how can you be sure hes coming back? maybe tell him on irc that atom returned.

or email, hi VOX!

im saying that people with 10+ more logins can submit a map to the vault.

I don't really like the MV after one year idea. People like me who have only been here for around 100 days and are capable of producing decent work ( ) that may be above the average quality of anyone who has been here for teh same time period's maps would be overlooked, as not many people would bother to check the 'n00b' MV.

^^

was that last anonymous        PEPPER?????

after one year!? who the hell said that!?

floater, that would be rabidmonkey.

let this die and post in the todo thread.

Using map vault after one year is a totally dumb idea becuase some people might already have loads of experience and want to post a map they made. Anyway, Atom has made his desicion. Look at his ToDo post.

A year is far too long.

i said like 20+ posts or 10+ logins. or sumthin... a year? wtf?

One YEAR? That's just insanity. I submitted for the first time about 3 months after I started mapping. OK, so the map sucked...but I thought it was decent at the time. Well, actually, it was one of my worst maps ever

Hey TWHL aint dead - well it still moves and stuff, just like a zombie :

I think the forum will be dead when HL2 comes. Everyone will map for it(me too). If the forum not change to it then. It will stand R.I.P.

But new mappers are good, if we deal experience with them they can be better and better. Only if we learn them(new tutorials, more maps in map vault) can they be experienced mappers, and can make the forum to live longer.