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Sledge (Hammer Alternative) Alpha Build

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Forums > General Discussion

25 Jan 14, 19:49
By Archie
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My Empire of Dirt
@Jeffmod:

Click Click Boom
25 Jan 14, 20:24
By COOBORKY?[kzna]
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Member
are there any plans on making func_water brushes transparent in 3d view? i think it would be nifty to have whatever 'FX amount' you set it to be how transparent it is in 3D view. not sure how possible or easy that is to do but it'd be helpful (for me anyway)
25 Jan 14, 20:34
By DiscoStu
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Member
If he were to do that, it would only be fair to implement all the relevant render modes, not just that one.

The problem is that if you set something to Texture/0 you've got yourself an invisible brush in the 3D view. He'd have to put a checkbox somewhere to enable/disable the in-editor render modes, at least.
25 Jan 14, 20:42
By COOBORKY?[kzna]
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Member
i see, and what about a "mark" feature for textures like hammer had? you know, the one where you select a texture and it will highlight every instance of that texture. or is that buried in there somewhere and i just overlooked it
26 Jan 14, 00:17
By JeffMOD
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Call 141.12
Archie: Thanks, I'll go see if I can dig up a hex editor get the relevant Notepad++ plugin, then.
Though it's beyond me why the VMF format was based on MAP rather than RMF.
26 Jan 14, 11:14
By Archie
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My Empire of Dirt
I should clarify I never actually tried the proposed fix.
26 Jan 14, 12:21
By Crayz
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Member
I registered here to say thanks for your dedication to this software and the support you provide

Though I am mapping for Counter-Strike: Source, I am able to use Sledge and save as a .vmf then later open in Hammer to complete a project. I may have missed documentation on this software and don't know how to config it properly (no entities or textures showing up etc), with my lack of experience is it possible to forget about Hammer and make the transition to Sledge? Or will we have to wait until Source is supported

Crayz
26 Jan 14, 13:39
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
Thanks Crayz, I will try to get Source supported as soon as I can, but for the moment Source won't work very well yet. You should be able to load up the CS:S FGD from `steamapps/common/counter-strike source/bin/cstrike.fgd`, and Sledge should show the entity list (I've tested the HL2 FGD and it works). Source textures won't show up at all yet, and displacements won't work either. I still have a lot of work to do on the base application and on Goldsource support so please be patient until I can add Source support smile - :)

@Jeff: I know precision issues have always been a problem in Hammer and the compile tools, but I haven't done a lot of testing with Sledge in that regard because I don't have much experience or knowledge in those areas. When I start working on Source support, could I ask you to help me out with identifying issues like this and trying to fix them? Of course I would accept help from anybody else who knows about these issues as well!

On your comment about file formats, VMF is actually the best format out of the three by far, because it's extensible. If you open and re-save a H4 VMF in Sledge and take a look at it in notepad, you can notice that Sledge actually saves the vertex values to the file (to speed up loading and to reduce precision issues), even though Hammer doesn't. Even though Sledge saves extra information to the file, Hammer 4 still opens it without errors. This is why VMF is a great format!
26 Jan 14, 18:48
By JeffMOD
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Call 141.12
Yeah, I'll be sure to test it thoroughly - as soon as Sledge supports Source fully, I'm planning on ditching hammer before the SDK launcher goes completely belly up instead of just being unsupported.
Any issues I find, I'll pound on your door. glad - :glad:
27 Jan 14, 00:10
By Tetsu0
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Tet Soo Oh
the SDK launcher is already belly up
Just launch the tools from the BIN folder.
28 Jan 14, 21:50
By JeffMOD
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Call 141.12
They don't work properly with custom game configs without a crapton of hassle.
But a recent bug forced my hand.
30 Jan 14, 16:30
By Alberto309
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GTX 660 Ti OC
Uhm... What about this?

Does it create a potential competition? I hope not. frown - :|
30 Jan 14, 17:28
By Stojke
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= O P L - 3 =
Its made by Xaerox, he also made an engine: http://www.moddb.com/engines/volatile3d-ii/


My experience from him is that he likes to disparage other people (Nothing extraordinary actually).
But he seems to know what he is doing so he might have his thing up and running in beta before Pengy chan smile - :)
30 Jan 14, 19:12
By Archie
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My Empire of Dirt
Quote:
I hope not.
Why? Competition is almost always a good thing.
30 Jan 14, 19:55
By DiscoStu
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Member
But that one looks pretty much the same as Hammer. Not to say exactly the same. Could well be a decompile with just a few minor changes added.
30 Jan 14, 20:05
By Stojke
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= O P L - 3 =
His original hammer editor modification were all hex edits of the original program. So its possible that he disassembled VHE and rebuilt it.
31 Jan 14, 02:23
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
I've seen that editor before, it's written in Qt so I doubt that it is built from Hammer source code. Of course, it's not open source so you can't say for sure if it's based on Hammer or not. The source code for it has been leaked a few times, IIRC, so it could be possible.

I've got no issues with competition. There's this one, and the Sven Co-op team has access to the Hammer 3.5 source code and are making enhancements for it as well. But neither of these projects are open source, and they're not interested in Source support at the moment, either. While Sledge is trying to produce an editor to replace Hammer, it's not trying to emulate Hammer exactly (unlike these projects). I'm trying to evolve the editor in a way that makes it easier for experienced users and new users alike by adding new concepts, back-porting Source features to GS, and other cool stuff. If another project does a cool thing, I'll just steal the idea and do it better in Sledge tongue - :P
03 Feb 14, 20:43
By XaeroX
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Member
2 Stojke:
Quote:
Nothing extraordinary actually

Couldn't resist registering and asking the only question: "Why?"
03 Feb 14, 20:49
By DiscoStu
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Member
Hahaha hi Xaerox, welcome to TWHL.
03 Feb 14, 21:30
By Stojke
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= O P L - 3 =
I simply meant that as people have their own opinion at things and you are an old member there with full rights to write as you did.
Something i would probably do as well.

Tis all cool me mon. (I also expected you would do that smile - :) )
04 Feb 14, 09:08
By XaeroX
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Member
Well, you said that I liked to "disparage" other people and there was nothing extraordinary. I'm just curious why you said that.

Regarding the Jackhammer, it does not participate in competitions, because there is no competition actually. I'm focused on creating a convenient cross-platform fully-functional level editor for a vast variety of games, and especially for my engine (this is a primary reason actually). If you like it and you use it - then I'm pleased. If you don't - well, ok. smile - :)
04 Feb 14, 09:30
By Stojke
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= O P L - 3 =
Nothing extraordinary in the means of you said what you said every one has their opinion. You did say that compilator is bad because of net framework and you said it in a way some one might find offensive and think of you badly.
I think of that as : I called it shit not because i hate it but because i disagree with it.

---

How stable is jackhammer? Will it work on older versions of windows? (eg windows 98)
04 Feb 14, 12:15
By XaeroX
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Member
I personally don't like people using "heavily-loaded" frameworks to create quite a simple software. Look at HLMV - its author wrote his own tiny framework (mxtk) and his viewer doesn't require any additional dependencies, and functions everywhere. And this is really nice. But nowadays there are lots of programmers that are not bothered about writing fast, compact, all-sufficient software. It seems that we will end up on drivers, and especially viruses, written in C# and requiring the latest .NET package installed prior to infecting one's system. smile - :) No offence meant, just logic.
However, this doesn't apply to Sledge, actually. Sledge has full rights to use any framework because this is a complex program, and I have no claims (although I still don't like .NET and C#, but tastes are different).

Jackhammer is in alpha stage since it is only 5 months old. It supports Windows versions starting from WinXP SP2.
04 Feb 14, 13:36
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
I agree, dependency management is more important than a lot of developers think, and it's annoying to see a very basic program is written in something like Java or .NET when you could write the same thing in C without any more effort. (Or, when you try and load up some open source project and it has to download 100 extra dependencies before it will even compile)

I'd say though, that once you have any sort of UI going on in your application, you don't have much of a choice but to use some sort of heavy framework dependency (Java/Swing, .NET/WinForms, C++/Qt), especially if you want to think about portability. Qt is probably the best choice for portability (because Swing is really terrible), but WinForms is surprisingly portable when you look at the Mono project.

When you consider The Compilator, I would say that it has a complex enough interface to justify introducing a framework dependency. Considering that Nem's Batch Compiler (which is what most people use) is also written in C# (or Delphi), I think that it is a reasonable choice to use .NET for it.

In the end it's all about choosing the right tool for the job, and in many cases there is more than one 'right' tool to choose from.
04 Feb 14, 14:24
By XaeroX
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Member
Delphi doesn't produce additional dependencies, because VCL is statically linked (at least Delphi 7 I worked with; RAD Studio became bloated and completely unusable imo). Delphi is not a good choice in respect to executable size, but at least the exe is self-sufficient. Visual Basic and .NET executables, on the other hand, are not. When compiler (or a GUI to it) becomes a part of large project, as happened to Q3Map2 when it became a part of GtkRadiant, it is obvious that it starts using the underlying framework, but I don't understand people using the framework for small standalone programs. Especially when the framework is not redistributable along with the program, that is a common practice for Micro$oft. smile - :) Qt is better because it is redistributable without restrictions, so is Gtk (but it has other serious flaws beyond a scope of the discussion).
Sorry for bad English, hope you understand my point.
04 Feb 14, 22:06
By Stojke
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= O P L - 3 =
I agree that software should be least as possible dependent on something not freely distributable. Not only software but multi platform usable hardware as well.
I never programmed passed console applications and some C in MS DOS so i cant comment much smile - :)

Too bad jackhammer can't be run on windows 98, i usually use my Pentium 3 when i cant access my pc, but hammer texture browser locks up the system (ATi Rage).
07 Feb 14, 12:01
By TJB
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Member
I'm not sure if it's a known issue, but Sledge doesn't seem to like Hibernate.
07 Feb 14, 20:48
By DiscoStu
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Member
...isn't Hibernate a web server based framework and in no way related to winforms apps?
07 Feb 14, 21:39
By TJB
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Member
Hibernate as in when your computer saves the state and then shuts down completely but then resumes where you left off when you start it up again.
08 Feb 14, 02:15
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
Yes, someone else posted a different issue but it happened after their laptop went into sleep (or possibly hibernate) mode. I'm not really sure how I will work around something like that, I will investigate.

@Stu: You're probably thinking of Hibernate as an ORM library for Java. It is often used in web code, but that is because Java (that connects to a database) is mostly used for back-end web stuff. It can be used in desktop Java programs too. There's a .NET port called NHibernate that could theoretically be used in a WinForms app smile - :)
08 Feb 14, 06:21
By Stojke
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= O P L - 3 =
From my understanding sleep (stand by) shouldn't cause this because the application is still in memory only execution is paused.
08 Feb 14, 06:29
By DiscoStu
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Member
Quote:
Hibernate as in when your computer saves the state and then shuts down completely but then resumes where you left off when you start it up again.

...oh. Right. My bad laughing - :lol:

Quote:
@Stu: You're probably thinking of Hibernate as an ORM library for Java. It is often used in web code, but that is because Java (that connects to a database) is mostly used for back-end web stuff. It can be used in desktop Java programs too. There's a .NET port called NHibernate that could theoretically be used in a WinForms app

You win this one, I've forgotten pretty much everything about it. I've had my Hibernate training forever ago and never once had to use it.
09 Feb 14, 03:28
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
New version! I finally got around to adding advanced compiling features. You will need to review your game and build settings as they have changed quite a bit, if you don't the compiling won't work correctly.

Full change list:

* Added proper advanced compiling support
* Added click-to-expand buttons to the docked panels
* Fixed a bug where the WAD paths were not saved to a MAP file correctly.
* Fix cursor not being captured correctly by the 3D viewport in free look mode. Fixes #98.
* Check for, and remove, empty groups when deleting objects. Fixes #32.
* Stop groups with no children causing errors during selection. Fixes #52.
* Double-clicking an object should open the object properties window. Fixes #54.
* Don't select parent objects when ignore groups is enabled. Fixes #66.
* Added information message for when no games have been configured
* Render the grid correctly on initial load in the modern renderer
* Add support for the updated Source FGD format (TF2, csgo)

(There was a bit of a hiccup in the update process so if you were unfortunate enough to update in the last hour or so to version 0.1.0.18, you will need to update again to 0.1.0.19. Sorry!)
09 Feb 14, 09:53
By Crayz
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Member
Nice work!!

A quick idea, within the Transform window (Ctrl + M) I can't count how many times I've pressed OK, object was transformed improperly, and I have to open the Transform window right back up. A small button out of the way perhaps to apply the changes without closing out of the window might be handy tongue - :P
09 Feb 14, 17:06
By Instant Mix
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Mr. Good Map!
Made a thread for you on Facepunch PB, give it a look sometimes. The FP'ers seem to be fairly interested in it after it got published on gamebanana
09 Feb 14, 23:06
By Rimrook
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Guru
I'm still hoping to see some kind of designing advantage to Sledge like quick drawing or sketching, quick brush drawing on the surfaces of other brushes, or SOMETHING.

Am I wishing too much?
09 Feb 14, 23:14
By Archie
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My Empire of Dirt
Like a DEV layer of brushes that wouldn't be compiled, you mean?
09 Feb 14, 23:49
By Captain Terror
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end of line
Rim, do you mean painting brush faces in the 3d window, or sketching on the background like a background image? (Either would be amazing!)

Even the ability to add a background image like in Max would be cool, but i suppose you could always just apply a custom texture to a big brush, to accomplish the same thing.
10 Feb 14, 00:14
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
@Rim: if you could make a mock-up or something of what you mean, I would be happy to add it to the list of enhancements.

@CapT: setting a custom background image is still on the to-do list and will be added eventually smile - :)

@Instant: thanks, that's awesome. I will keep an eye on the comments in that thread for suggestions and bugs, in case FP users don't want to create an account here.
10 Feb 14, 11:34
By GamerX
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Member
People want real-time rendering, including me. Without it, sprites and models' placement couldn't be achieved as we want.

Also, the loading of a map should be a bit more faster because it's slower than the Hammer.

I'm also waiting to see if my suggestions and bugs report could be considered. I hope you have seen them. smile - :)
10 Feb 14, 12:51
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
There's not a lot I can do about speed, Hammer will always win there because it it written in C++ which is on average about 30% faster for CPU-intensive tasks like loading maps. Also, Hammer loads all WAD files on startup, but Sledge loads them all when you open the map. The slowdown simply happens at a different time (startup vs. map load). Try changing your computer's power settings so that it doesn't power down your spindle drives, that's sometimes a cause of massive slowdowns during loading. That applies to Hammer, too.

I'm not sure what you mean about real-time rendering... sprites are still not there yet, but models have been implemented for quite a while. Make sure you have set up your game paths correctly.
10 Feb 14, 13:32
By Rimrook
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Guru
Don't worry about realtime rendering. It won't happen in any Source/GS editor unless you build a render engine suitable enough to represent the final product as it would look in-game.

I'll need time to mock up those design things and make examples. I'll do a youtube video.
10 Feb 14, 16:13
By ninja defuse
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Member
hey pengui did read my last post, there is a bug
10 Feb 14, 21:26
By COOBORKY?[kzna]
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Member
thank you for being so quick with the updates! and for taking my suggestions into account ^^ everything is great again!
11 Feb 14, 08:18
By DiscoStu
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Member
What I think Rim is saying is a sort of built-in MS Paint in the 3D view. I fail to see its usefulness, though.
11 Feb 14, 09:24
By GamerX
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Member
About real-time rendering, I was meant about rendering of models and sprites in 3D view. That's still not implemented.
11 Feb 14, 09:47
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
Again, check that your game paths are set up correctly. Model rendering has been implemented for a while now.



Make sure you have either WON HL or an updated Steam HL (post-steampipe). Go into the game settings and set it up, and then close and re-open your map.
11 Feb 14, 13:51
By GamerX
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Member
I did alread and still it's not rendering models nor sprites.
11 Feb 14, 22:46
By Penguinboy
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Haha, I died again!
It's almost certainly a problem with your configuration, can you send me some more information (pastebin is fine):

- The Settings.vdf file located in "%AppData%/Sledge"
- The FGD you are using
- The absolute path of the player.mdl file you would expect to load from an info_player_start entity (e.g. C:/Half-Life/valve/models/player.mdl)
- The file size of the player.mdl and playert.mdl in bytes

As I have said multiple times, sprites are not implemented yet, but models are.
12 Feb 14, 02:31
By Archie
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My Empire of Dirt
Sledge has been discovered on 'Lopers although somewhat predictably they don't really see the point without Source support at this stage. Still, something to keep an eye on for suggestions, and I imagine a particularly bountiful place to find what your every-day Source mapper is interested in seeing implemented.
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