MotM: November Created 16 years ago2007-12-01 06:46:23 UTC by Archie

No. My entire post was not about whether or not i liked your mod. I am talking about your attitude. Maybe you should have a read of what i said again, and not trying to twist it as a personal vendetta against a specific user.

As to voting, democracy extends form the large scale to the smaller scale. It is not at all an extrapolation, because it is in fact an interpolation. Stop trying to twist the words of other people's posts into what you want. They are what they are.

If this happens more often, where users can't accept other people voting for someone else's map, perhaps next time we'll get users to PM their votes directly to Daubster.

Disputes aside, I really like the system of voting in the forums for now. It'd be a lot more enjoyable if people weren't getting all butthurt over mods winning or losing, yet until TWHL3 comes along I'm fine with this system. It allows us to discuss our reasons behind our votes, and these threads can't truly go off-topic until voting is over and there's no more reason to continue discussion, at which point the thread is closed anyway.

I can accept anyone voting for any map, but I don't have to like people voting against another map. No matter how you put it, that's a very lousy way of deciding any type of competition, let alone a mapping one.
Can you answer this question being 100% honest? If Masta Killa had released "The Citizen" and Playbus and I had released "dm_particle", would they have 7 votes each right now?
...
Gotcha

sigh

I don't have an issue with you or Playbus. OK, i didn't like your mod, and now because of that, it seems you have an issue with me. But i am not involving my opinion of The Citizen in this discussion, and I do not have any special particular dislike for you. I am a neutral observer.

Who's to say that anyone is voting against you? On top of that, why aren't they allowed to? As I said, if you don't want a map to win, you obviously don't vote for that map. If someone enjoys a deathmatch map more than your mod, why is it that they shouldn't be allowed to vote for the deathmatch map?

As for your question, I have absolutely no idea. But if the maps were exactly the same, my vote would still be on dm_particle, because I really did enjoy playing it more than I did The Citizen. You can either accept that as a valid opinion (and not just someone trying to be nasty), or keep arguing like the entire world is against you.

Cant you see that people aren't voting against you, they are voting for MastaKilla? Because if someone liked The Citizen more, they would vote for it, as people already have.

I already showed you with quotes who was clearly voting against The Citizen. I can't go into people's head and know the exact truth, but some of you actually specified it. Don't try to hide that.
Did you by any chance play the whole mod?

yes, I finished the mod, and it must say it improves a bit gameplay-wise toward the end (although the level quality drops a little bit).
I can't speak for everyone else, but I enjoyed dm_particle more.

I could say that people voting for The Citizen are voting against dm_particle, hence making the voting system unfair and childish. But that would just be stupid.

yes, I finished the mod, and it must say it improves a bit gameplay-wise toward the end (although the level quality drops a little bit).

I find it hard to finish a 2-hour mod if I'm not enjoying it...
Which levels are the ones you think drop in quality? The library? The conference hall? ...

I could say that people voting for The Citizen are voting against dm_particle, hence making the voting system unfair and childish. But that would just be stupid.

Has anyone said they are voting for The Citizen because they don't want dm_particle to win? Nope. But I showed you the contrary is true.

I think I'm too influenced by my own way of rating maps that I can't get into other people's heads.
When I see and play a map, there are usually things I like and things I don't like. In terms of architecture, 90% of the maps I see have something which I don't like and which any architect would laugh at. But I usually keep those to myself, because I know others won't care as much!
I review maps based on how my appreciation of them might help other users decide if the map is worth a look, not on how much fun I had with it or not, because I know my tastes don't have to be shared by everyone. As such, I usually focus on real and objective facts about the maps, which are the only ones that help the mapper and are valid for anyone reading the review because they're not opinion-based, they're fact-based. That's the only consistent way to review maps, and ultimately the only way to help others. Who cares if Bob doesn't like temple maps when he's rating John's map? No-one. But they might care if Bob thinks the theme could use a different type of lighting.

Do you have to have some type of special status to vote?

If not, my vote is for "the citizen"

Well that's your opinion. And people can do whatever they want. Back to voting please.

Haha, wow, things got busy in here while I slept.

I have no intention of arguing with anyone on the internet at 9.30am on Sunday.

So, thanks to everyone who has / does vote(d) for us.

I'm off for coffee and bacon.

I swear to GOD, you people are the most whingy, fucked up, retarded people I've ever had the misfortune to meet. I can't even begin to comprehend how utterly retarded you all are.

Congratulations.

Is that all you can add to a mapping discussion and a procedure-related issue?
Doesn't put you in a better position than anyone who's posted in this thread lately, does it?

Current Score
The Citizen - 9
dm_particle - 7
dm_Armazenamento - 1
dm_biological - 1
pls_fy_deak_square - 1

Oh, and what the fuck?

Well I really don't care too much what happens here. I know that many people, including many whom I don't know personally, have spent many hours enjoying Citizen. And that's all the reward I need.

But, I think that if Citizen doesn't win this .... well Jesus. You'll have to take a long hard look at the reputation of TWHL. Because any mapper with any skill can see that Citizen is not even in the same league as it's competitors here. It's far more accomplished than all of the other contenders put together - in every way - and whether you like Citizen or not, you can't justify denying that.

.. what? Honestly, either accept people's opinions, or don't release your work. Obiviously, no matter how good you think your stuff is, there will always be people, who dislike it or criticise it.
I mean, I've always seen you as experienced mappers, smart people, but fuck, plugging your ears and shouting out "NYANYA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU! CITIZEN PWNS!!" isn't quite the most mature way of reacting to votes against your awesome mod. Sure, there's loads of effort put in it, but that doesn't make it instantly superior to everything released in the MV, does it?
Anti-votes? Bullshit. Some people just don't like The Citizen and they're voting for what they think is the next best release. Call that immature and stupid, eh?
People have opinions, whether you like it or not. Get the fuck over it. :

Still voting for The Citizen, since I did enjoy it. I'm one step from voting for particle, though. I really can't stand shitty immature arrogance.

I know it's not much of an excuse, but I was wasted when I wrote that post.

Yeah it sounds arrogant. Sorry. I didn't really mean it the way it came out.

So I apologise to anyone I've offended, and I'm going to stop talking about it...................now.

its only valid if you use the smiley

Sure, there's loads of effort put in it, but that doesn't make it instantly superior to everything released in the MV, does it?

It depends. If the amount of content counts for anything (which for me it always does), then it's possible. But again that wasn't the problem. It's only the lame anti-vote attitude which I think hurts MotM more than The Citizen, which has already had its fair amount of praise so far.

"NYANYA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU! CITIZEN PWNS!!"

Can you quote anyone saying that? Nope.

some people just don't like The Citizen and they're voting for what they think is the next best release

You know what, even though I didn't really like Doom3, I wouldn't vote for Elite Force 2 just so Doom3 wouldn't win. But then again that's just me I have to stop thinking everyone is capable of judging with the head and not the heart.
But you get that everywhere. Vilcabamba scored 78% in the Abandoned Workshops, and Idol Hunt (which includes an improved Vilcabamba and 5 other maps) scored the exact same 78%. People don't know jack about consistency reviewing maps or mods.

If the amount of content counts for anything (which for me it always does), then it's possible.

That makes so little sense it makes my head spin.

It makes perfect sense. If the amount of content in a map or mod adds to the experience (which for me it always does because I like seeing new gameplay, characters and spatial situations), then it's possible that The Citizen (16 maps and quite a bit of custom content) would instantly be better than single maps which at best offer me a new WAD file or a new model to look at... What's so difficult to understand about that?

Yeah, but if the content in the map doesn't add to the experience, which obviously some people here feel, then the amount of content is a complete moot point.

As well as that, 'adding to the experience' doesn't nessecarily mean 'good'.

Can you quote anyone saying that? Nope.

Metaphore. Penguinboy, for instance, gave you more than one reason to stop complaining about how people vote, yet, judging from your posts - you've ignored them all.

It's only the lame anti-vote attitude

What happened to expressing your opinion? Sure, some of them didn't provide much reason to why they voted for a different map, yet it's entirely their choice. Be the reason "LULZ IT SUX", it's still a valid vote. Naturally, since by voting you give one point to the map you liked the most, all the other maps you could've voted for recieve sort of an "anti-vote", since the voter didn't find them worthy of his vote. So, if what you're saying is right - every map posted between 01-31 Nov. has already recieved loads of anti-votes. Maybe the other authors should stand up for themselves too?

I enjoyed playing around in trapt's dm map, black penis and all more than playing Halo 2, A multi million dollar Singleplayer game.

According to you kasperg, me doing just that, is impossible?

One high quality map could easily shit over 15 low quality maps, deal with it. For the sake of this thread, for this competition, and for the all of the TWHL users who have to read this crock, shut the hell up.

I vote dm_particle for my own reasons.

Naturally, since by voting you give one point to the map you liked the most, all the other maps you could've voted for recieve sort of an "anti-vote"

Come on, we are all intelligent enough to see that I was specifically talking about those who didn't like dm_particle above the rest, and voted it just because it was in a position to overtake The Citizen. And they specifically said so. (of course, they changed their motives to "I really did enjoy it", but it no longer works after saying "I voted it because I didn't want The Citizen to win"

@doodle:
Is trapt's dm map competing with Halo 2 in any way? Nope. And I repeat, even if I had fun with Trapt's map I would still recommend Halo2 as the Map of the Month, because I know that it can offer people much more than a single dark dm_map can in every way.

@Strider:

One high quality map could easily shit over 15 low quality maps, deal with it

That's hardly the case
And people who don't want to read can skip the parts they don't want. I think everyone has figured out the use of the scrollbar.

those who didn't like dm_particle above the rest, and voted it just because it was in a position to overtake The Citizen.

You're missing the point that everyone's free to like or dislike TC. If they indeed don't like it and vote for a map, that's capable of winning - where's the problem? Should they stop voting?

No, you're right. I'm sorry.
You guys win. Do whatever you want with your freedom. I'm afraid I won't be able to help with MotM anymore since the current voting system has proven to be far from perfect this month.

Far from perfect because there's a chance your mod might not win. Poor Kasperg.

I see. So I guess the previous months were totally perfect and this month it isn't eh?

Interesting.

Kasperg, the voting system is exactly that, a voting system. A democracy. It works just fine. Some people don't like you and your mod and you took a hissy fit. It is the most childish thing i have ever seen, and i had a massive ammount of respect for you which has just completely vanished.
You need to learn to calm the fuck down and stop posting retorts to everyone's opinions.

Requesting a mod delete these nonsense posts on the subject

I didn't see anti-voting the previous months, or a big mod showing up.
Changes things a bit

You need to learn to calm the fuck down and stop posting retorts to everyone's opinions.

^so much for that, eh?

I'm afraid I won't be able to help with MotM anymore

Too bad it turned out like this. However, do as you wish.

Now, let's be done done with this and [m]get the hell back to voting![/m]

Current Score
The Citizen - 9
dm_particle - 8
dm_Armazenamento - 1
dm_biological - 1
pls_fy_deak_square - 1

In any case, dm_biological would take my vote. I'm sorry but the layout being the same as dm_vapour, dm_particle etc, it's a much more pleasant arena to fight in, since you can actually always see where you're going.

@The Hunter:
I'm perfectly calm. You always get the strange idea that I'm angry or something (my projects thread). I'll try to win back your respect with the Hostage Situation maps I'm still working on.

I think I ought to re word what I posted, since I think I am responsible for setting this off. I probably should have never thrown in the, "to be fair" part alone without an explanation, as that in itself is not fair.

What I meant was, right now, I can't play HL2 maps due to hardware issues. At least not for any significant amount of time- I can play a Source single-player map for a short while- and that's at best (Portal excluded- I have no idea why, but it runs for a longer time on here. Also, this is also due to the fact it's one room at a time, so I can still play it, because I can complete however many puzzles, and then whenever it does eventualy crash, I can pick up where I left off a little later.) I could try my old XP machine, but that's acting up as of late, and that may have caused me to not have experienced the map properly- and I don't think I would be able to vote fairly in that case, because the map would not have been as fun to me as to others, in that matter. I can vote for a Source multi player map, because I can just play for a short amount of time to see if I enjoy it, wheres in a single player map/mod, I have to play through quite a bit of it, which takes quite a while in many cases, at which the game will crash due to my ATi driver's driver failing. So I didn't want to vote for The Citizen for a simple reason- I had never played it. And I don't want to vote for something I have never played, just because it was popular- so I voted for particle, because this was the map I liked the most from the Vault this month- that I had played. So, that's what I meant by, "to be fair." If I had voted for TC because everyone else was saying it was good, and were voting for it, that's not fair either. So, I figured that the most fair course of action was to vote for the map I had played, and liked the best.

It actually might be a good idea for someone to give a constructive explanation why they liked a map enough to vote for it, for their vote to be counted. If someone says they liked a map just because it was, "awesome" that's not constructive. Indeed, I left out why I enjoyed particle, and that was because I honestly never thought a few people would get wound up over what map won. I liked the the theme and the texturing, as well as the moody lighting, which, along with some nice use of sounds here and there, helped set a nice ambiance.

You did nothing wrong Skeetz. Of course you can map for the map you liked best. But not everyone does that, because democracy let's you do whatever you want and it's cool to go against something "for the lulz".

My vote stands, as with the current situation it brings maximum lulz.

From the TWHL map vault:

Citizen - 115 downloads
dm_particle - 50 downloads
dm_Armazenamento - 24 downloads
dm_biological - 30 downloads
pls_fy_deak_square - 38 downloads

total number of votes in this poll - 20

The point of this post:

I wonder why more people don't vote.

Well I did share the Mapvault link outside of TWHL and you don't have to register to download right?

Shrek's ugly baby has a good point.

Citizen - 115 downloads
dm_particle - 50 downloads
dm_Armazenamento - 24 downloads
dm_biological - 30 downloads
pls_fy_deak_square - 38 downloads

That would only mean anything if everyone who downloaded a map enjoyed it, and downloaded it because they liked it, which is a joke in itself.

OMG TIS IS MA FAVRIT MAP. I THINK ILL TRY IT.

No. It means MotM, like the rest of the TWHL community things, is a big failure in terms of participation. It's been that way for years.

(In case anyone wants to know, neither Playbus nor I have provided the link to the TWHL map vault entry anywhere outside this site. Planet Phillip and Snarkpit had the map some hours before and none of their users download through here).

I'm afraid whatever logic Blitzkreig is using here, is beyond me.

Did you miss the bit I put in bold?

I understand Blitzkrieg's logic completely. He's saying:

You download it to try it, not because you like it. Because if you liked it, you'd probably have it, therefore meaning you don't have to download it.
So unless someone accidentally deleted their copy, and wanted to still have it, all of the downloads of every map/mod is from people who haven't tried it. Unless of course the map creator(s) download spammed it to get marks...
And just because you download and play something doesn't mean you have to like it.

Thank you, and no I didn't miss the part you put in bold. I must've just picked up a subtlety that I thought you were trying to include by showing The Citizen had so many more downloads. My mistake if I thought you would do that.

That doesn't contradict what Playbus stated in any way. He was comparing the number of total downloads with the number of total votes.
Unless people download maps to fill up CDs with and never actually play them, all of the nominated maps have gotten very few votes compared to how many times they've been downloaded. Which shows the participation is low. Not only that, there's absolutely no way to know if everyone who has voted for The Citizen has actually played it, if everyone voting for dm_particle has actually played, etc.

If we really had the time and will to do so, deciding map compos could be done by having users make video reviews. I know it's impossible, but It'd really give people a chance to really make a point about their opinion and judging criteria or on the other hand, show evidence of their inconsistency and ambiguity while reviewing maps. I bet we'd get tons of videos of people walking around empty fy style maps saying "I just enjoy it! lulz. It's my democratic opinion."

I laugh when I'm hearing you guys saying that MotM is a failure. I mean, the system is perfect. There's nothing that could possibly BE a failure about a frickin' voting system, and no matter what anyone says in here, MotM itself is STILL WORKING FINE. The only thing you can argue is that the discussion in this thread sucks, which obviously it does.

Aside from that, those download numbers prove nothing except that big mods that are discussed to great length and have their own threads are more popular than obscure multiplayer maps. I can't possibly think of a more fitting word to use right now than duh. Not everybody who plays a mod or map cares enough about it or MotM to vote.

The system is not perfect, and it's not working as fine as you say because now maps are not being voted just on the basis of who's enjoying them (I won't bother mentioning quality issues since they don't exist for many people and that's ok), but on the basis of "who is voting wha"t and "who made what", and "who we don't want to win". Democratic, yes. Perfect? haha

Your old, stale argument must be being eaten by rats, because it it full of holes.

Please, shutup about the voting system. If it means so much to you that you lose or come close to losing a MOTM competition at a very small community website, you need to take a good look at your ego.

Here's how democracy, including this MOTM vote system works:
1. you vote for a map.
2. the map with the most votes wins.
The end.

[m]If somebody doesn't think The Citizen deserves to win, they vote for the other map.[/m]

If you still argue that the voting system sucks because some people don't think you should win, then it just proves how ridiculously arrogant you are, that you wont accept that someone can make something that people enjoy more than yours.

Kasperg, the definition of what "voting against a map" consists of is in this case sketchy at best. You'd have to assume that somebody either didn't play any maps that month, or played yours, liked it, and then for no apparent reason decided to turn around and vote for something they hadn't played just to spite you, which makes no sense. Even if they'd only played your mod this month, they'd still know whether or not they liked it, and didn't think it deserved to win.

I think Penguinboy should start deleting posts in here that are either related to the voting system or have anything resembling flaming in them.

I think Penguinboy should start deleting posts in here that are either related to the voting system or have anything resembling flaming in them.

I think everyone is being correct enough. If you have to resort to censorship concerning my posts, it means you've run out of arguments. I'm not Orpheus guys!

I have no problems with me ego, and that's why I don't spend my time putting down other people's work, which is what some people here do to balance their lack of skill. I just enjoy mapping and helping other mappers. You'll never see me say anything bad about a map without saying the good. That's not exactly what an arrogant person with a mapping experience similar to mine would do, is it?

If somebody doesn't think The Citizen deserves to win, they vote for the other map.

You just said that people vote for a map they like, and now you're admitting that the premise is that the voting is "The Citizen" vs. the rest. Make up your mind! hehe

If you still argue that the voting system sucks because some people don't think you should win, then it just proves how ridiculously arrogant you are

People should think who should win, not who shouldn't win. You stated so before
I insist (because you still don't get it) that it's irrelevant to me who likes it or not. An average rating of 9.01/10 out of 79 votes across three sites gives me a good indication of who has liked this first installment even with its bugs.

Kasperg, the definition of what "voting against a map" consists of is in this case sketchy at best

For example, "I vote for dm_particle because I don't want the citizen to win" or "anything else that people vote that is not The Citizen" ? Those weren't subtle at all, were they?

Third page.