WIP mod maps, textures any TIPs? Created 8 years ago2016-06-25 11:17:44 UTC by kruk

Ok so was working and trying to push the engine to max with my mod with keeping a reasonable fps XD
Trying to get majoryty of textures to be 512x512 and did managed it ration on 128x128 gid in editior with a variations of textures 512x256, 512x128, 256x256 to 64 grid ect.. ect..(atm got 60 modular textures)

And actualy the map compiles rly fast dosnt, go over 1000 wpoly (still will create more open spaces, my max i think will be 2000wpoly with lifts ladders variations of going up/down on lvl) still need to make some deco models not going over 2000tri per model.
Will see if it runs 60fps.

screanshots

The textures are pretty similar with some occasional base coloring per level, white light will indicate a door.
So what do you guys think? will this be manageable for a whole mod?
Any gues what obsticle i can encounter with this approach,
ides to improve on this?

THX ;]

It should go well, as long as it runs at more than 20fps on an Intel X3100, which is a terrible iGPU, even in Sven Co-op.

In my opinion, it would be a smart idea to make 1 texture with 2-4 resolutions, like: 1 floor texture, with a 128x, 256x, 480x and a 512x variation.
So, use the 128x for the non-detailed, non-reachable areas, and use the 512x (and/or the 480x) texture for the "obvious" parts, where the lightmaps should be detailed, for example.

However, I recommend the 480x texture more than 512x. Why 480x480? Because if you fit a 512x on a face, it will have 6 wpoly. With 480x, it's only 4 wpoly, at least I think so.

One obstacle will be the alloc-block limit or something, I've heard of it once. So, for max detail, use a 256x texture with a detail texture overlaying it. Just don't use too much detail textures, because they can take up too much video memory, since some integrated cards still have less than 256 MB of VideoRAM.

And try NOT to use blinking lights, a.k.a "lightstyles" in lightmaps. Because OpenGL doesn't support them well enough, so it does lag a bit. It lags horribly on the Intel X3100, even with 1 blinking light.

It would be way better to see the result with "gl_wireframe 1/2" (WARNING : OpenGL only, shitty Direct3D renderer doesn't support this and the legacy Software also won't).

I'm against the idea of having 480x480 texture as this can cause bluring (I think Don aka Unq also mentioned this on "Run Think Shoot Live's Level Design Academy"), the best would be to use those sizes :

1x1
2x2
4x4
8x8
16x16
32x32
64x64
128x128
256x256
512x512

I think it is also best to match the texture's size with the geometry, for instance, if I have a wall that is 128x128 units higher, I would use a 128x128 texture.

If you say that you have more than 2k world polygons, you've done something wrong, because if my estimations are correct (I'm not HLCSG, HLBSP, HLVIS and HLRAD so I will likely be wrong), you should be between the 500 and 1k world polygons.

128x128 units higher, I would use a 128x128.

Sure i understand it's more what the engine is designed for, but my issue is the quality atm i know using 512 tex on 128 units is limiting in some cases but i try to use it as much as i can by creating the levels "claustrophobic"
Now i dont go over 1kw poly but is going to 2k woly rly a issue in SP?
Thats why i am planning to do for bigger places.

some aditional screenshots with wireframe

btw didnt compile it as final and didnt make any optimizations with null ect

I understand this is the base tech usage for this engine mapping in 1999
(i made maps for cs similar in 2001).
But rly? cuting on texture resolution just to get a low wpoly on SP in 2016? i dont think its a isue i 2016 even for goldsource.

Sure i can lower wpoly but with cost of texture detail and why you say the texture resolution must be same as units?

Since you're making the maps for the mod, you could simply make the final version, along with an LD version of the maps, to be downloaded separately.

The LD version is basically a re-texture of the map with no major brushwork changes, if any, but of low detail. Like, if you have a few 12-sided barrels, the LD version would have lower-res textures, and only 8-sided barrels.

Of course, not everyone is patient enough to do that, so it's your call whether you'll use tiny textures or big ones.
I'll certainly follow my realm of experimental designs.

try NOT to use blinking lights, a.k.a "lightstyles" in lightmaps. Because OpenGL doesn't support them well enough, so it does lag a bit.

Wait, what? I'm not sure what's wrong with the X3100 if that's the case. Granted, it's been years since I've properly mapped for goldsource, but back when I did I used lightstyles all over the place, and while it definitely impacted my compile times, it never introduced a framerate drop on any of the machines I used to map on, none of which were supercomputers for their time.

In my opinion, it would be a smart idea to make 1 texture with 2-4 resolutions, like: 1 floor texture, with a 128x, 256x, 480x and a 512x variation.
So, use the 128x for the non-detailed, non-reachable areas, and use the 512x (and/or the 480x) texture for the "obvious" parts, where the lightmaps should be detailed, for example.

An interesting idea, but I wouldn't go too overboard with it. The additional memory usage probably wouldn't be an issue to modern machines, but the compile tools do have a texture limit built in. I'm not sure if modern variants have upped it, (they probably have) but the original distribution of the tools defined it as 512 textures used. Using a bunch of different-sized variants of your world textures will drastically cut down the ones you have free for brush-based props and the like. Something to keep in mind when doing it, at the very least.

But rly? cuting on texture resolution just to get a low wpoly on SP in 2016? i dont think its a isue i 2016 even for goldsource.

Unless it's super impacting your performance, wpoly isn't really an issue these days. I don't think it's been an issue for a decade or so, so unless someone's maintaining an authentic 90s or early 2000s machine to play classic games on as a hobby, they should be able to keep up. As long as it compiles you should be fine.

why you say the texture resolution must be same as units?

I think he made the assumption that you were working with a 1.0 texture scale. You can certainly use 0.5 (or 0.25 if you really want to try pushing the engine) if you want higher detail and crisper shadows, (As lightmap density is directly tied to texture resolution, unlike Source) just keep in mind that in goldsource, the flashlight's size is also tied to lightmap density, so the smaller the scale, the less light you can shine on it.

Other than that, I can't recall if there's a drawback or not to using rectangular textures - there might be a small memory or vram hit, but I reckon it should be acceptable in the few cases you'd need it. Other than that, just keep everything a power of 2 size like Shephard listed, and keep the scale as consistent as you can.

Bonus Archie texture tutorial.

Kruk check this
http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/42096-How-to-use-detailtextures-in-a-professional-manner
you fps problems are gone with that

That's neat.

Also I can't help but laugh at the guy in that thread who's complaining about a 22% reduction in frame rate when it's still running at far greater than 60fps.

well to play cs or hl online properly you need at least 100 stable, nothing to laugh at. Detail textures indeed seem like a big hack to the hl engine, although its kind of very inconvenient to map with

well to play cs or hl online properly you need at least 100 stable

W8..is it just me or you cant go over 60fps on steam version and can juse just software and opengl?

Did try with the detail maps trick, its rly neet, but needs some aditional planing and work, didnt did anyone use it in SP mod? rly wanted to see it not just in one MP map ;] and isnt there some limit to it? what worries me the 60 TGA files (512x512) can be heavy.

didnt did anyone use it in SP mod?

Counter-Strike : Condition Zero - Deleted Scenes (if I remember correctly)

rly wanted to see it not just in one MP map ;] and isnt there some limit to it? what worries me the 60 TGA files (512x512) can be heavy.

I think there is no limit on that, you can try to see if compressed TGA works.

actually there is no limit and this methode was not used at all in any sp mod I know about.

The best part is you can use 512x512 textures and can scale them down to 0.1x0.1 without any fps drop and it looks fantastic

And you can force detailtextures to bet set on with a custom config for your sp mod.

A example of this technique is my cs/hldm map:
Here: http://gamebanana.com/maps/187720