I'm glad you were able to experiment and discover for yourself the shortcommings involved with targetting a multisource with a trigger_multiple. Now you can see that my 6 entity setup is not "way more complex" than the 5 entity setup previously suggested by SlayerA... and now yourself.
On top of what you mentioned, and as I mentioned before, entites other than buttons can be used to target the multisource... like doors, etc.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-30 13:47:12 UTC
in vault item: Paper Thin BrushesComment #4173
"The 'null' texture will suffice, no need for Solid, 255 and a 'pure blue' texture."
Yeah they do the exact same thing... no big deal. And since this was an example map, and I wanted to make it as clear as possible to noobs that those bruses were entities, I set it up that way. It's similar to why I used the aaa texture in my other map to show that the brushes were triggers.
"After all, the 'null' texture doesn't make a brush cast shadows. It's whether this brush is an entity or not that determines whether it casts a shadow or not."
True, but you initially suggested, before you experimented, that by using a null brush and applying a texture to one side, then copying and flipping, you could create the same effect. The brushes you initially described WOULD cast shadows.
"Oh, and you don't need to cover your outside faces with the 'null' texture... the compilers will discard these faces for you."
Again... I know this too. But I didn't apply the null texture to the outside faces of my map. I am in the habit of using the null texture when creating my architecture. Instead of doing what you suggested, I actually applied the non-null textures to the visible faces of my map. Take a closer look and you should be able to tell.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-30 11:19:47 UTC
in vault item: aim_aztec_bunkersComment #4171
I'll dwnload it later, at least you didn't pimp it, I would advise against that, do yourself and us a favour and only pimp fully fledged maps, thanks pink, I know you got sense.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-30 02:26:09 UTC
in vault item: Paper Thin BrushesComment #4169
Heh, in fact, my setup would be exactly the same as yours, except for the render FX, FX amount and texture used. The 'null' texture will suffice, no need for Solid, 255 and a 'pure blue' texture. After all, the 'null' texture doesn't make a brush cast shadows. It's whether this brush is an entity or not that determines whether it casts a shadow or not.
I see I sometimes give incomplete explanations. I'll try to avoid that in the future.
Oh, and you don't need to cover your outside faces with the 'null' texture... the compilers will discard these faces for you. That's exactly why you need to use two entitities for this paper thin wall... since all unnecessary faces (as far as the compilers can determine) are removed...
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-30 02:12:06 UTC
in vault item: Paper Thin BrushesComment #4168
Mhh, indeed, I forgot to tell you need to make both brushes an entity. Otherwise, indeed, both faces are discarded. This would also happen when you put both brushes into one entity.
Correct, 'multimanagers' in my first post had to be 'trigger_multiples'. Sorry for that misstake.
I've finally been able to do some testing myself and trigger_multiples targetting a multisource do work, although there is a little thing to keep in mind. A multisource will trigger it's target once all entities that target this multisource are 'active'. For example, 3 buttons target a multisource. All 3 need to be activated before the multisource will trigger it's target. Should one of 3 buttons reset before all 3 are pushed, nothing will happen as the multisource requires all of them to be active at the same moment. Trigger_multiples behave a bit different than buttons. A button goes to non-active once it resets. A trigger_multiple doesn't... you can only use it again after it is reset, but it's state, as recognized by the multisource, doesn't change when it resets. Instead, you have to trigger it again. This may cause some confusion at first but it's really simple once you get how it works.
So, using trigger_multiples has some shortcomings indeed, from the side of the trigger_multiples, but this is easily avoided by triggering func_buttons with those trigger_multiples, effectively combining their possibilities. I made an example map for you, where you can either walk trough the trigger_multiples and so activate the buttons, or push the buttons yourself.
My way: 2 trigger_multiples, 2 func_buttons and 1 multisource. 5 entities total. Probably the same method as SlayerA provided.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-29 23:36:35 UTC
in vault item: fy_simpsons_streetComment #4165
Kills self and comes back to grave to kill himself again This is classafied as a map?
Quote "its a fy map..." Drinks till he drops so that he doesn't need to see this
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-29 23:31:17 UTC
in vault item: de_antidustComment #4164
Its the most played map because it is a great map. People only call it bland because it is seen way to often. What makes it good is more its layout than anything else because anyone who maps here could make it.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-29 13:59:22 UTC
in vault item: Paper Thin BrushesComment #4160
Well Captain P,
If you're saying to put the brushes "next to" (one unit apart) each other then you will see 2 paper thin brushes when looking at them from the side.
If you're saying to put the brushes right up against each other... well, it just doesn't work. The non-null textured faces aren't rendered. Experiment for yourself and you will see.
Also, one of the "shortcommings" of using the null texture is that even though the brush is invisible in the game, it still casts a shadow. You can use this to your advantage if you want the brush to cast a shadow, but for my purpose a shadow was not desired.
Your way may not be that difficult or time-consuming, but for the task of making paper thin brushes... it just doesn't work.
Captain P, I assure you that I am aware of the problems regarding targetting a multisource with a TRIGGER_MULTIPLE (yes... that would be a shortcomming). Your original post says nothing of using buttons (btw doors work too) to target the multisource. Actually, in your first post here, you mentioned using multimanagers to target the multisource... which is completely unnecesary.
If I did what you suggest in BOTH of your posts, I would use more entities than my example map uses (thus making your way more complex...)
My way: 2 trigger multiples, 2 func_doors, an env_lazer, and a func_button. Total: 6 entities.
Your way: 2 trigger_multiples, 2 func_buttons, 2 multimanagers and a multisource. Total: 7 entities
ACTUALLY, as anyone who follows the general mapping forums would know, SlayerA provided a solution which uses ONE less entity than I did with my example(not WAY less complex... but none the less, less complex)
Even though the multimanagers you suggested are entirely not needed for this to work, I wont tell you to "read up on them because you are clearly not familiar with them"... instead, I'll just thank you for trying to help fellow mappers solve their problems.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-29 06:19:39 UTC
in vault item: Timefall (SP Mod)Comment #4153
Hello Captain and thanks for yours comment and for you play it to the end. Yes in some case you have a good point, but in some I don't agreed. ex. in the last battle it is a puzzle to use, to get in to the front of the tank, and from that position take out the turrets. And yes! it is a bug in "fall11k" the map there you shall drive up the APC-tank on the lift, if you start to drive up the tank to the lift and leave it to put on the power for the lift and leave the map in baktracking to "fall8h" and back again to the "fall11k". The Hatches on the APC be invisible, and I think it is the env_renders "behaviour" from map to map, over two changs_levels???? I have fix it in my orginal but when I try to do a patch the patch be near the same size as the orginal so I leave it there. Tlax.
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-29 05:07:38 UTC
in vault item: Paper Thin BrushesComment #4152
Why not create a brush, cover it with the 'null' texture, apply a normal texture to one side, copy the brush, flip it and put the normally textured sides next to each other?
Read up on the multisource before talking about it's 'shortcomings'. You are clearly not familiar with it. When you ue two buttons that target the multisource, the multisource will only activate it's target once both buttons are 'active'. And since you can set buttons to reset after a while...
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-28 13:39:01 UTC
in vault item: de_antidustComment #4144
It's pretty nice.
+ Good strategic layout + Didn't spot any bad textures + Some nice details - Most areas are square. - R_Speeds are over 1000 in some places, 1200 in one I found
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-28 11:44:40 UTC
in vault item: ka_glassmazeComment #4140
Oh wow, someone responded with my solution, thanks so much for clarifying that peace and love, and yes I am using info_playerstart/deathmatch, but I'm not sure if they're 16 units apart or not, I'll try all of this when I get home. Thanks again!!!
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-28 07:55:13 UTC
in vault item: aim_aztec_bunkersComment #4134
btw! that fence, is just for not causing a leak, eh... =) I'll make it an aim map or build on to the other road you see there... maybe just aim for now... I'll see...
Commented 20 years ago2004-09-28 06:08:37 UTC
in vault item: Breakable Glass on DoorComment #4129
well, interesting to see you try, it is a bit useful if you're making an sp map, but no good for what most ppl will want it for, which is CS or DM maps.
Yeah, I'm not unfamiliar with the multisource... the point of this example map is to get around one of its shortcomings.
The trigger_multiple will toggle the on/off state of the multisource each time it resets. That would allow ONE player to touch each trigger_multiple and activate the multisource... or allow the multisource to be activated by two players who activated the triggers at separate times.
I found the way used in my example map to be a somewhat simple workaround to this shortcomming of the multisource. Using the example I provided, two players need to be standing on separate trigger_multiples at the exact same time in order to trigger the event.
pimp = advertise (bit like spam)
On top of what you mentioned, and as I mentioned before, entites other than buttons can be used to target the multisource... like doors, etc.
Yeah they do the exact same thing... no big deal. And since this was an example map, and I wanted to make it as clear as possible to noobs that those bruses were entities, I set it up that way. It's similar to why I used the aaa texture in my other map to show that the brushes were triggers.
"After all, the 'null' texture doesn't make a brush cast shadows. It's whether this brush is an entity or not that determines whether it casts a shadow or not."
True, but you initially suggested, before you experimented, that by using a null brush and applying a texture to one side, then copying and flipping, you could create the same effect. The brushes you initially described WOULD cast shadows.
"Oh, and you don't need to cover your outside faces with the 'null' texture... the compilers will discard these faces for you."
Again... I know this too. But I didn't apply the null texture to the outside faces of my map. I am in the habit of using the null texture when creating my architecture. Instead of doing what you suggested, I actually applied the non-null textures to the visible faces of my map. Take a closer look and you should be able to tell.
"I see I sometimes give incomplete explanations."
It's ok to make mistakes... no one's perfect.
After all, the 'null' texture doesn't make a brush cast shadows. It's whether this brush is an entity or not that determines whether it casts a shadow or not.
I see I sometimes give incomplete explanations. I'll try to avoid that in the future.
Oh, and you don't need to cover your outside faces with the 'null' texture... the compilers will discard these faces for you. That's exactly why you need to use two entitities for this paper thin wall... since all unnecessary faces (as far as the compilers can determine) are removed...
I've finally been able to do some testing myself and trigger_multiples targetting a multisource do work, although there is a little thing to keep in mind.
A multisource will trigger it's target once all entities that target this multisource are 'active'. For example, 3 buttons target a multisource. All 3 need to be activated before the multisource will trigger it's target. Should one of 3 buttons reset before all 3 are pushed, nothing will happen as the multisource requires all of them to be active at the same moment.
Trigger_multiples behave a bit different than buttons. A button goes to non-active once it resets. A trigger_multiple doesn't... you can only use it again after it is reset, but it's state, as recognized by the multisource, doesn't change when it resets. Instead, you have to trigger it again.
This may cause some confusion at first but it's really simple once you get how it works.
So, using trigger_multiples has some shortcomings indeed, from the side of the trigger_multiples, but this is easily avoided by triggering func_buttons with those trigger_multiples, effectively combining their possibilities. I made an example map for you, where you can either walk trough the trigger_multiples and so activate the buttons, or push the buttons yourself.
My way: 2 trigger_multiples, 2 func_buttons and 1 multisource. 5 entities total. Probably the same method as SlayerA provided.
http://www.websamba.com/captainp-home/custom/mt.zip
This is classafied as a map?
Quote "its a fy map..."
Drinks till he drops so that he doesn't need to see this
The textures are from de_springfield, a truly great map with literally tens of custom sounds.
If you're saying to put the brushes "next to" (one unit apart) each other then you will see 2 paper thin brushes when looking at them from the side.
If you're saying to put the brushes right up against each other... well, it just doesn't work. The non-null textured faces aren't rendered. Experiment for yourself and you will see.
Also, one of the "shortcommings" of using the null texture is that even though the brush is invisible in the game, it still casts a shadow. You can use this to your advantage if you want the brush to cast a shadow, but for my purpose a shadow was not desired.
Your way may not be that difficult or time-consuming, but for the task of making paper thin brushes... it just doesn't work.
I assure you that I am aware of the problems regarding targetting a multisource with a TRIGGER_MULTIPLE (yes... that would be a shortcomming). Your original post says nothing of using buttons (btw doors work too) to target the multisource. Actually, in your first post here, you mentioned using multimanagers to target the multisource... which is completely unnecesary.
If I did what you suggest in BOTH of your posts, I would use more entities than my example map uses (thus making your way more complex...)
My way: 2 trigger multiples, 2 func_doors, an env_lazer, and a func_button. Total: 6 entities.
Your way: 2 trigger_multiples, 2 func_buttons, 2 multimanagers and a multisource. Total: 7 entities
ACTUALLY, as anyone who follows the general mapping forums would know, SlayerA provided a solution which uses ONE less entity than I did with my example(not WAY less complex... but none the less, less complex)
Even though the multimanagers you suggested are entirely not needed for this to work, I wont tell you to "read up on them because you are clearly not familiar with them"... instead, I'll just thank you for trying to help fellow mappers solve their problems.
but the name suggests it was rushed to make it cool if you know what i mean
Yes in some case you have a good point, but in some I don't agreed. ex. in the last battle it is a puzzle to use, to get in to the front of the tank, and from that position take out the turrets.
And yes! it is a bug in "fall11k" the map there you shall drive up the APC-tank on the lift, if you start to drive up the tank to the lift and leave it to put on the power for the lift and leave the map in baktracking to "fall8h" and back again to the "fall11k". The Hatches on the APC be invisible, and I think it is the env_renders "behaviour" from map to map, over two changs_levels????
I have fix it in my orginal but when I try to do a patch the patch be near the same size as the orginal so I leave it there.
Tlax.
Ain't that difficult or time-consuming...
Get the idea?
+ Good strategic layout
+ Didn't spot any bad textures
+ Some nice details
- Most areas are square.
- R_Speeds are over 1000 in some places, 1200 in one I found
I'd like to play it with some other people.
well done
search for rmf in search tool! be a lot cooler
-Koozie
I'll make it an aim map or build on to the other road you see there... maybe just aim for now... I'll see...
good work though. interesting idea.
The trigger_multiple will toggle the on/off state of the multisource each time it resets. That would allow ONE player to touch each trigger_multiple and activate the multisource... or allow the multisource to be activated by two players who activated the triggers at separate times.
I found the way used in my example map to be a somewhat simple workaround to this shortcomming of the multisource. Using the example I provided, two players need to be standing on separate trigger_multiples at the exact same time in order to trigger the event.